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Vi-Zer0Skill
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07-15-2007, 07:55 PM
Post subject: A-Q Confused on Flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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Villan is 36/9/0.5 over 30 hands. He has donk potted 2 flops before this hand, but neither hand went to showdown.
Player 1 is a complete unknown
$1/$2
Hero(UTG): $444.45
Villan(SB): $212
Player 1(BB): $100.55
3 other players
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [As Qd]
Hero: raises $6 to $8
3 folds
Villan: calls $7
Player 1: calls $6
****FLOP****[Ad 8s 4s]
Villan: bets $24
Player 1: calls $24
Hero: ?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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raise to 100 and cry call a push from villain.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
raise to 100 and cry call a push from villain.
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Ugh, are we really calling a push here? I thought about the possibility of raising, but if we get shoved on, I cant imagine we are nearly ever ahead even considering the odds we would be getting, but maybe Im wrong. I think in this situation I would probably just call in the heat of the moment and then have no idea wtf to do on the turn.
Could you expand on this a little more?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Idk Andy I don't like raising either but it's pretty clear we have to, and if we do we have to raise to an amount to commit ourselves to a push (because of possibly villain and player 1 drawing) But we can't really fold to a push for 100 more.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Idk Andy I don't like raising either but it's pretty clear we have to, and if we do we have to raise to an amount to commit ourselves to a push (because of possibly villain and player 1 drawing) But we can't really fold to a push for 100 more.
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Yea, I agree we need to call a shove if we make it $100, but I was just thinking about if we made a raise to like $72 or so.
While I dont disagree with saying we have to raise, I think it would be helpful [and not just to me] to hear the thought process behind a raise and why calling would be bad.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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what's wrong with calling in position with a good hand?
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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yeah i raise to $75 and fold to a push, dont have pot odds to chase 3 or less outs.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
yeah i raise to $75 and fold to a push, dont have pot odds to chase 3 or less outs.
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$75 allows our opponents to play their hands too well I think. In fact, we may as well raise to $115 to ensure they don't play it well.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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calling seems ok, but id rather thin the field and might get more info with raising.
i like the 3x-ish raise, and put shorty all in on the turn if they call it, not sure about big stack but prob fold if they push.
$100+ is overplaying it imo. donk bets like that are often just "see where im at" type bets.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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At the time, i figured Villain would be leading (A-x, Xs-Xs, two pair/sets). My plan if Player 1 had not also called would have been to call on the flop and fold to a strong double barrel.
Since Player 1 called (A-x, Xs-Xs) i figured a raise would be better with the additional dead money in the pot and the potential that the shortstack would be drawing to the flush cheaply.
I actually raised to $105 and Villain pushed. I called and villain turned over Ks-Qs. The Js hit on the turn and villain won the pot with a flush.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
what's wrong with calling in position with a good hand?
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The 3-way nature of this hand puts us up against more collective outs and encourages us to get our money in while we're probably good instead of peeling.
Heads-up calling for information is my line.
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wouterpoker
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 42
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is no one folding this, or even considering folding?(the flop) I think I did fold in these situations a couple of times. And I don't think i am that nittish. How much of the time does player 1 has a better hand here? I think it is quite a lot. Of course raising would fold out his AK probably, but if I raise I would definitely fold to a push.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wouterpoker
if I raise I would definitely fold to a push.
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WTF? Flush draws are pushing this soooo often.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
what's wrong with calling in position with a good hand?
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You lose equity in the pot by letting weaker hands draw for good odds (in this case free).
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
You lose equity in the pot by letting weaker hands draw for good odds (in this case free).
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However, you can set-up an even bigger edge on the turn and gather information reguarding his holding (determine if he has an even bigger made hand) in the process.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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given that this player donk betted twice so far we can be sure that his range contains a lot more than sets+draws. player 2 likely doesnt have a 13+ out draw or set as he cold called.
since this is true and we cant let two players draw at this pot for free id raise to 80+ and call a shove from either player.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Another problem with overcalling the flop is that your hand is mostly face-up if you do. This makes it easy for your opponents to avoid making mistakes against you on later streets, so you benefit from taking it down on the flop.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
yeah i raise to $75 and fold to a push, dont have pot odds to chase 3 or less outs.
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$75 allows our opponents to play their hands too well I think. In fact, we may as well raise to $115 to ensure they don't play it well. |
can you spare me the vague mystical stuff and just say something that makes sense?
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