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Preflop battle against Johnny_fish

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aislephive

09-12-2006, 06:11 AM Post subject: Preflop battle against Johnny_fish

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I have him at about 20/15 over a good sample (datamined hands) and he is at about 3-4 of my tables. One hand I check-raised him with like 55 on a J high flop and he pushed and I had to fold, and he has also reraised me one time which I folded but he definitely hasn't gotten out of line at all. Not sure what he thinks of me but I view him as a good tag. I imagine his range for his 4bet is a little wider than normal since he opened on the button and I reraised out of the BB, both which indicate little in terms of hand strength. I put him on AQ+, TT + and occasionally a total bluff with like 9 high. What is my range to push here?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($201.70)
UTG ($80.70)
MP ($126.48)
CO ($200)
Button ($99)
SB ($201.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with two cards ..
SB posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, CO raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero raises to $20, CO raises to $65, Hero raises $179.70 (All-In),

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johnny_fish

09-12-2006, 08:16 AM

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Lol, I didn't know your new sn

I'll post my thoughts later.. Anyway, let's just say I'm even more unsure of my fold now

nutsinho

09-12-2006, 08:32 AM

#3 (permalink)

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KK/AA/AKs

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elipsesjeff

09-12-2006, 12:22 PM

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I'll add JJ and QQ, although not that I'm a big fan. I've called in these spots with AK before in a blind battle.

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Ravageur

09-12-2006, 02:19 PM

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If you think you'll be facing this opponent a lot, I don't think it's bad for you to push any two for meta-game if you think you have some f/e. It'll also let him know to your blind isn't an invitation to steal. .

However metagame aside your range should only be AKs, AA, KK, QQ. AKs i would be more likely to push than QQ because you're OOP and smooth calling his reraise is chip spewage. QQ i'd be more content to peel one and evaluate the flop. KK, AA i smooth call as well because villain is going to be pot-committing himself with any c-bet here and I want to maximize value.

Sucks that Johnny folded so that we can't see results

Family Cruise IMO

r8ed

09-12-2006, 02:37 PM

#6 (permalink)

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I would think he would often smooth-call if he had AA/KK. So, you know you have some FE by pushing over because he can't really call without QQ+. Therefore, you can do this with TT+ , AK/AQ and probably get a fold and if not hope to outdraw with the lower end of your range.

With that said, I think it's not really worth it for you without QQ+ or AK. Why not take your chances against worse players where a call is less likely to mean you are dominated.

elipsesjeff

09-12-2006, 03:23 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravageur

I don't think it's bad for you to push any two for meta-game if you think you have some f/e. It'll also let him know to your blind isn't an invitation to steal. .

I really don't like this that much at all. The blinds don't kill you nearly as much as you think they will and you're pretty much putting all your chips in preflop on a 'guess' on whether or not Johny_fish has a hand. All this to defend your $2 blind; the risk/reward ratio here is not worth it. You also wont be playing against your opponent enough during this session that he'll even change his play based on these actions, and is still just as likely to steal again on a later street only because He's probably not paying as close attention to you as you think he is.

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Fnord

09-12-2006, 06:26 PM

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Jeff needs to be quiet.

Yeah, you should play any two cards like Aces every now and then, because otherwise you'll get run over in these hyper-aggressive super-suspicous short-handed games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

johnny_fish

09-12-2006, 06:33 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

One hand I check-raised him with like 55 on a J high flop and he pushed and I had to fold

I pushed because of the FD, you might call with a slightly wider range because of it.

******* Hand 2 ********

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $197
CO: $213.75
Button: $225.98
SB: $201.8
SB: $202.25
BB: $179

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with J

Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 7

($16, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $10, SB raises to $30, Hero raises all-in $180, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: $180 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $56

Quote:

What is my range to push here?

I was pretty sure it was exclusively AA/KK, although I felt I represented QQ/AK so maybe AK was in your range a lot. Now I know it was you I think it is..

Quote:

That's what I thought he was thinking.. I don't generally 4-bet AA/KK 100bb deep.

******* Hand 1 ********

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $80.70
UTG+1: $126.48
Hero: $200
Button: $99
SB: $201.80
BB: $201.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A

2 folds, Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, BB raises to $22, Hero raises to $65, BB raises all-in $179.7, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $179.7 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: $88

Quote:

He's probably not paying as close attention to you as you think he is.

That's right, I generally focus on the fish patterns and assume all Tags play more or less the same (8-tabling).

theDEEPdish

09-12-2006, 06:39 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I think pushing any 2 is good here since these 2 will probably be playing together alot it might be -ev for this one hand but +ev lifetime against the other player

Ravageur

09-12-2006, 07:26 PM

#11 (permalink)

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This is in regards to the two hands Johnny posted....

I think Johnny played the second hand perfectly. Seeing as Villain (original poster)'s re-raising range on the BB to your button raise is much wider than usual (it should be at least), I hate taking a passive line with AK here even in position. I think it's a marginl fold to the push. As silly as it sounds, I probably call if your AK was suited given the odds you're getting.

Not sure about the JJJ hand though because the only hand I can see your opponent felting on the flop is a lower set. I am happy to let my opponents chase their flush draw for the appropriate price. Even if villain thinks you're semi bluffing with an FD yourself, i don't see a hand we can put him on that would call this. He doesn't have an overpair (given preflop action I imagine) and it's highly unlikely he has top pair. You're hoping he calls AI with an Ace high flush draw? Just seems like you're losing tons of value here. Thoughts?

Family Cruise IMO

gabe

09-12-2006, 07:35 PM

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johnny you have to call with AK there!! that is a big leak if you put that much of your stack in the pot then fold to an AI preflop

Fnord

09-12-2006, 07:38 PM

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I hate to 4-bet and fold to a push against TAgg with AK and position. But I don't mind 4-betting if you intend to call the push. You have position, he flipped the spew bit, see a flop and go from there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

johnny_fish

09-12-2006, 07:54 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

johnny you have to call with AK there!! that is a big leak if you put that much of your stack in the pot then fold to an AI preflop

I think the fold is ok if I put him on KK/AA only (it usually is AA if an unknown Tag pushes preflop).

But I probably shouldn't 4-bet.. Folding to the 3-bet seemed to weak given his range (AQ+/TT+, maybe AJs/99), and I hate to call a 3-bet with AK. I won't win anything on A-high flops, sometimes get stacked at a K-high flop and have to fold to a cbet if I miss.. Floating in reraised pots without a very good read is -EV too so why would I call?

I miss something here; AQo and even AJo won more over 41K hands than AKo

aislephive

09-12-2006, 09:58 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Given that we did have a little bit of history, albeit not much, I would say my range to push is probably QQ+, AK+ and occasionally I might be stubborn with JJ or a medium pair or even AQ and shove. I don't think I would ever shove there with AJo or anything that weak, and I would never ever bluff with nothing. In your position I would probably 4 bet as well and call a push. You pretty much committed yourself there and AK is the kind of hand you'll be flipping a coin with often in this spot or being about a 2-1 underdog (I believe you were getting around 2-1 on a call) against KK. Only against AA are you in really bad shape.

When you made that speech in the chat I thought you were just kind of hollywooding it up and 4 bet with something weak.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($201.70)
UTG ($80.70)
MP ($126.48)
CO ($200)
Button ($99)
SB ($201.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, A

. SB posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, CO raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero raises to $20, CO raises to $65, Hero calls $179.70 (All-In), CO folds.

Final Pot: $267.70

gabe

09-12-2006, 10:23 PM

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as you move up in stakes you are going to get more and more of these 3/4/5 bet situations. most of them look ugly and adds alot of variance to the game.

r8ed

09-13-2006, 12:51 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

as you move up in stakes you are going to get more and more of these 3/4/5 bet situations. most of them look ugly and adds alot of variance to the game.

At 100NL, BB has AA/KK 90% of the time and AK/QQ 10%. I'm sure the range is larger at 200NL, but probably not by much. I wouldn't adjust for the future just yet.

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Preflop battle against Johnny_fish

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