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10-01-2008, 08:20 PM
Post subject: pot control question
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 27
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when protecting a strong hand for example Ah Ks on a Ad 8c 3c post flop I've seen players bet the flop hard in position against 1 caller. then checking behind on a non-scary turn card.
I've always thought to bet all three streets and then decide whether to call if you suspect villain hitting his draw.
What exactly does pot control mean? does it mean betting small on the flop and turn to call down on a cheap river? or does it mean not betting the turn as to keep the pot small?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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The basic idea of pot control is to bet smaller when you bet, AND/OR sometimes check in lieu of betting, with the idea that both of these things keep the pot size smaller (obviously). Hands like one pair, or even two pair or trips on a dangerous board, are well-served by playing a pot control game a lot of times - one because the hand is not that strong and really doesn't have full stack value except against a maniac; and two because you don't want to artificially inflate the pot and invite someone to execute a bluff that would be really difficult for you to call. Basically you keep the pot managable when you are in a spot where you might not be comfortable putting all your chips in.
The thing about TPTK on a seemingly raggy board is a related (but not identical) concept: wa/wb (way ahead/way behind). In your example, let's say you raised pre-flop with AK and a decent player calls out of position. The board is A83, he checks, you bet, and he calls. The turn is a 6 and he checks again. Why might you check here? Well - because he's decent, and your hand doesn't expect to get three streets of value from him with very many worse hands. So he might be trapping with a better hand that you have very few (or no) outs against; or he might be way behind you (say with an ace/worse kicker, or a pair like TT) and has very few outs against you instead. In this case you're either way ahead and he'll probably fold to the 2nd barrel, or you're way behind and don't want to put a bunch of money in anyway. So you check, with the expectation to call most reasonable bets on the river, and usually value bet if checked to. In the latter case, he often shows down a weaker ace or underpair that probably wouldn't have called bets on all three streets anyway, so you're not losing anything by not having bet the turn; in fact you might be GAINING a bet by playing it this way.
(In this example our theoretical decent player has a pretty small range of hands: Ax; mid pocket pairs like 99, TT, and JJ; and sets. The important thing is that if he has a worse ace or a mid pair, he is drawing to two or three outs. If he has a set, you have only runner-runner outs on the flop and no outs on the turn. Hence, the way ahead/way behind concept.)
But in general I think wa/wb thinking applies to decent & tight players, not fish, maniacs, donks, laggs, etc. Against all the varieties of bad players, you may be better off just value-towning them to death.
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planner
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 27
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amazing reply thx so much.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Good post dale.
To go on a bit further on this, I think in todays games, checking behind dry board turns is a bit overrated.
Really, if we're betting flop, checking turn, betting river when checked to, we're like never bluffing on a dry board.
I often double the turn and check behind river. Just double the turn with air/draws as well and villain will have a tough time and really should start calling lighter.
In my experience, in todays agressive games, people already do as a standard (at least with TPBK).
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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I agree with that. To expand on it - and this is something I wanted to mention before, but my post was already long enough - it can be table image-related, both yours and his. Your general image and the way you are playing other hands in this spot can determine if betting the turn in these kinds of hands is wise. We're already assuming he's a decent player if we're thinking of checking behind the turn - is he decent enough to know if you're playing LAggy or firing second barrels with air a lot? If so, then betting there with TPTK can't be bad.
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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I often apply the "flop and turn" bets to pot control concepts as well. Possibly because I am bad at picking off river bluffs....LOL and I can check behind the river and still get my two streets of value (with draws as well as with one pair type hands). Today's games are also agressive enough that more TAGs are calling the second barrel with a middling hand imo.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
Good post dale.
To go on a bit further on this, I think in today's games, checking behind dry board turns is a bit overrated.
Really, if we're betting flop, checking turn, betting river when checked to, we're like never bluffing on a dry board.
I often double the turn and check behind river. Just double the turn with air/draws as well and villain will have a tough time and really should start calling lighter.
In my experience, in today's agressive games, people already do as a standard (at least with TPBK).
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I have been doing this a lot more as of late too. I think it became to readable that I was only betting turns when trying to get 3 streets of value. I now bet the turn and check behind a ton more rivers instead to control the pot. Reasons being that bad players with draws will still call turn bets but never call rivers when missing, so I now get two bets from drawing hands. When going for three streets of value I can now bet the flop and turn without tipping my hand since I barrel so much more often. Lastly, I find that so many people are onto the auto Cbet now that they peel with almost anything, 66-99 Axs and overs, to see what you are going to do. Betting the turn folds out a ton of hands that may still have a ton of outs against a hand that doesn't necessarily want a showdown.
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