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Pot control is for pussies? A misunderstood concept!?

  
 
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silu73
Old 05-10-2007, 11:32 PM     Post subject: Pot control is for pussies? A misunderstood concept!? #1 (permalink)  
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I have been reading a lot of forum entries and as I am hardly ever on 2+2 I found reading some of their HH analysis quite funny. One concept I found is so often misused and misunderstood is pot control. Sure I control the pot with checking my 66 on the turn OOP on a AK3r board after my c/bet was called (all hypothetically) but why check when I have TPTK on non-scary board? Reads are very important and I might check good hands against aggressive opponents who have show some kind of strength but basically betting a good hand is way better in shorthanded games.

This was one of the hands in question:

UTG ($397.70)
Button ($201.35)
Hero ($195)
BB ($150)

Preflop: Hero is SB with
2 folds, Hero raises to $8, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($16) :Ad: (2 players)
Hero bets $11, BB calls $11.

Turn: ($38) (2 players)
Hero bets $29, BB raises to $58,

I couldn’t believe the amount of people advocating a check turn here. Maybe I’m too aggressive but this IMHO is not a good example of checking the turn for pot control.

A search couldn’t find any meaningful discussion about the concept of “pot control”. I believe that weak players use this concept far too often as an excuse of not being able to play postflop.
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Ash256
Old 05-11-2007, 01:30 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Isn't the relevant idea here that if we don't control on the turn we won't have enough behind on the river to fold if he has us beat?

Although maybe you're right and that not being able to fold TPTK getting 2.5:1 or whatever (thats just a number I've made up, I'm too tired to look at stack sizes) is a sign of postflop weakness.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 05-11-2007, 01:48 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 the only reason they are saying turn check is because you got raised so their like "damn i want to fold here, we should've checked the turn!"

most of his range on the turn is just calling.
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JL
Old 05-11-2007, 01:59 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 I agree.

Check the turn to control the pot/induce river bluffs with weak TPTK type hands.
Because AK is the best TPTK you can get, bet the turn.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 05-11-2007, 02:57 AM     Post subject: Re: Pot control is for pussies? A misunderstood concept!? #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silu_nz
One concept I found is so often misused and misunderstood is pot control.
Thank you. I rant about this in my operation because i completely agree.

Pot control is really about the value of your hand. In this AK hand, he probably has three streets of value (meaning that if you three barrel you'd get called by a good amount of worse hands), so he definitely shouldn't be checking the turn (although once he gets minraised he's probably beat).

The places where you want to check the turn for pot control is when you're hand has 2 streets of value or he'll call with a lot of hands on the turn but not the river (example: a draw heavy board). A lot of people just overuse pot control because frankly, they are pussies and don't want to play a big pot with one pair or have to call down aggression.

I think the reason that pot control is understood is because don't understand why they are doing it, they think that they are controlling the pot for the sake of controlling it, and not because controlling it will maximize your value.

Also, just wanted to add that pot control also has to do with building a pot. Like c/r a little bigger with a set so you can get the opponent commited or leading a flop because you think someone will raise you with a weaker hand and bloat the pot out of control.
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Fnord
Old 05-11-2007, 05:19 AM #6 (permalink)  
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This is pot control too...

UTG ($397.70)
Button ($201.35)
Hero ($195)
BB ($125)
Preflop: Hero is SB with
2 folds, Hero raises to $8, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($16) :Ad: (2 players)
Hero bets $11, BB calls $11.

Turn: ($38) (2 players)
Hero checks intending to shove over any bet...
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 05-11-2007, 05:22 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
This is pot control too...

UTG ($397.70)
Button ($201.35)
Hero ($195)
BB ($125)
Preflop: Hero is SB with
2 folds, Hero raises to $8, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($16) :Ad: (2 players)
Hero bets $11, BB calls $11.

Turn: ($38) (2 players)
Hero checks intending to shove over any bet...
no shit. on such a dry board in the first example the only reason I'd check would be to check-raise.
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sauce123
Old 05-11-2007, 05:26 AM #8 (permalink)  
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fuck pot control
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Ash256
Old 05-11-2007, 01:58 PM     Post subject: Re: Pot control is for pussies? A misunderstood concept!? #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo
Quote:
Originally Posted by silu_nz
One concept I found is so often misused and misunderstood is pot control.
The places where you want to check the turn for pot control is when you're hand has 2 streets of value or he'll call with a lot of hands on the turn but not the river (example: a draw heavy board).
I use pot control with top pair (and sometimes other stuff) is because I feel he'll call with a lot of hands on the flop and the river but not the turn.. There's a world of difference between three barrells and two intermittent ones - the latter is very easily interpreted by poor TAGs as "cbet, give up, bluff" so regularly that it's worth it.. Or have I totally misunderstood or am I not seeing the bigger picture?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 05-11-2007, 03:00 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 i two and three barrel with air so much it would be suicide to check a lot of turns with top pair.
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gabe
Old 05-11-2007, 03:40 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
fuck pot control
ship it
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zook
Old 05-11-2007, 04:06 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
fuck pot control
ship it
lol. You're leveling us or you've changed your tune gabe.

I think pot control has gotten a bad name b/c everyone associates it with checking turns with good hands. Pot control can also be betting pot instead of 3/4 pot, c/r'ing instead of leading, overbet pushing... you know, balla moves.

I think manipulating the pot to keep it small also has it's place, especially against tight passives or oop vs. good players. I've found myself keeping the pot small much less now that I've switched to 6-max b/c people call down light and bluff more so medium pairs have more value and kickers play more often.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 05-11-2007, 04:43 PM     Post subject: Re: Pot control is for pussies? A misunderstood concept!? #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo
Quote:
Originally Posted by silu_nz
One concept I found is so often misused and misunderstood is pot control.
The places where you want to check the turn for pot control is when you're hand has 2 streets of value or he'll call with a lot of hands on the turn but not the river (example: a draw heavy board).
I use pot control with top pair (and sometimes other stuff) is because I feel he'll call with a lot of hands on the flop and the river but not the turn.. There's a world of difference between three barrells and two intermittent ones - the latter is very easily interpreted by poor TAGs as "cbet, give up, bluff" so regularly that it's worth it.. Or have I totally misunderstood or am I not seeing the bigger picture?
You seem to get it. I just realized i accidentally miswrote something...

Quote:
The places where you want to check the turn for pot control is when you're hand has 2 streets of value and/or the opponent likes calling rivers more than turns.
that's what it should say. The thing is, it's just usually not the case that someone is like that.
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zook
Old 05-11-2007, 04:52 PM     Post subject: Re: Pot control is for pussies? A misunderstood concept!? #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo
Quote:
The places where you want to check the turn for pot control is when you're hand has 2 streets of value and/or the opponent likes calling rivers more than turns.
that's what it should say. The thing is, it's just usually not the case that someone is like that.
I'm like that actually and so are a lot of 200NL regulars in my experience. The turn check behind, river bet looks so bluffy that a lot of medium pair hands that would have folded to a second barrel look you up.
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