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jyms
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12-28-2006, 03:18 PM
Post subject: Pot control
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#1 (permalink)
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Not going to post particular hands, I'm looking to have your theories involved in checking the turn to control the pot with TP. I have started checking the turn when i have TP, having gotten involved too many times in large pots with either overpairs or hitting the flop with hands like AK, AQ or even KJ on the button and trying to make the drawing hands pay to draw. I have been letting too many made hands, like flopped str8's and sets, hide behind my bets. I know it depends, what are the it depends?
as an example of what I mean your UTG, Raise preflop with AK or AQ, hit TP on the flop, draw on board, you C-bet 3/4 to full pot, villian calls, turn doesn't bring the draw card, check, check, river is non draw card...? river is a draw card?
Same hand, but your on the button, villian checks the turn, you check, you've shown weakness, Villian puts out a Pot sized river bet???
My problem, if it's not becoming clear, is I never know now if the bet or raise from the villian has come, because I have shown weakness, or he has a made hand. Does it now come down to pot odds? Is it all about villians range. your notes, if you have any, if the draw hits. D all of the above?
What is the first step in thinking your way around this.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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You're at 50NL right? I fell into this line of thinking when I moved up, I made this same adjustment and it hurt my game. I started checking the turn, betting a blank river and all I get is folds, I am then also forced to check behind scary rivers and often my hand is good against some trash. The end result was less money going into the pot (especially when I was ahead) and me winning less.
You are going to hit stretches where it seems every decision you make is the wrong one, there may not be anything wrong with your play. I'm not sure if I just hit a bad stretch and pulled out, or if I've also subconsciously made adjustments.
It does come down to reads and ranges. If you've noticed someone c/c with a set, flopped straight, etc then I definitely bet flop, check turn, usually call river. If you've noticed them bluff the river then I check the turn and call the river. If I notice someone call, call, fold on drawey boards I will generally assume they were on a draw and bet the turn, check behind on the river (you get more value by seeing their hand than the occasional call). If you notice them making bad calls of any sort, bet, bet, bet. You'll sometimes loose to flopped 2-pair, but you'll win more than enough to cover.
If I check the turn with TPGK I almost always call the river bet.
If they're very aggressive I'll check the flop (because I don't want to get raised and have the pot get out of control) call the turn and river. This also works to induce bluffs from agros.
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Harry
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Philly
Posts: 722
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I prefer using pot control on the river, blocking bet OOP or checking behind in position with a decent hand.
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PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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There are times when to use both turn and river techniques. I prefer to check the turn against aggressive players on dry looking boards. They love to bluff in these spots. Id rather be betting the turn and checking behind on draw heavy boards and against players that call light on the flop/turn but not on the river. Obviously this doesnt apply to being OOP. Then blocking bets are used commonly.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Checking lots of flops is generally my favourite way of pot-controlling with tptk type hands
-ppl never put you on a hand when you check flop
-your hand is deceivingly strong
-the pot's not too big
There are lots of exceptions to this but it's optimal I think in general.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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koolmoe
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12-29-2006, 02:58 AM
Post subject: Re: Pot control
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#6 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Same hand, but your on the button, villian checks the turn, you check, you've shown weakness, Villian puts out a Pot sized river bet???
My problem, if it's not becoming clear, is I never know now if the bet or raise from the villian has come, because I have shown weakness, or he has a made hand. Does it now come down to pot odds? Is it all about villians range. your notes, if you have any, if the draw hits. D all of the above?
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It certainly depends on your opponent, the board, and recent action.
In general, though, when you check the turn with a fairly strong made hand like TPGK to control the size of the pot, a river call is implied. If the opponent is passive enough that you would fold to his river bet, I often prefer to bet the turn.
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Poker is freedom
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Thanks guys, your giving me exactly what I needed. I was shooting for pot control but had no real idea of the thinking involved to control it. I'm now getting an idea where my head should be come the turn and river betting when holding TP. I'm not sure yet of all the lines and situations, but who is, and I get plenty of time to practice .
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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you can check the flop at times as well when the board is pretty blank and bet turn and river for value.
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