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IowaSkinsFan
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01-29-2007, 04:22 AM
Post subject: A possible spot for a very loose preflop call.
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Reraiser is 24/19 reg who i have tons of reads on. The big one for this guy in this hand is he doesn't cbet without a hand. Hijack is 18/12 and not tricky. Pretty much I'm playing a flop I hit big and also pushing on flops they both check (besides junk ones since a pp probably will call me).
PokerStars Game #8174904085: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/01/29 - 00:08:26 (ET)
Table 'Themis V' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: redgrape ($101.55 in chips)
Seat 2: DougieG20 ($100 in chips)
Seat 3: FGators26 ($92 in chips)
Seat 4: ftnillini ($117.80 in chips)
Seat 5: HijackTheBox ($174.85 in chips)
DougieG20: posts small blind $0.50
FGators26: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [Td 9d]
ftnillini: folds
HijackTheBox: raises $3 to $4
redgrape: calls $4
DougieG20: folds
FGators26: raises $14 to $18
HijackTheBox: calls $14
redgrape: calls $14????
I'm pretty confident my flop play was good but if you want to comment go ahead.
*** FLOP *** [9c Ad Js]
FGators26: checks
HijackTheBox: checks
redgrape: bets $83.55 and is all-in
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Well first off you should probably switch tables here. Fgators is like a god over at 2p2... and Dougie G is a lite 3bettor, and they both have position on you. This is a standard call for me PF. Your 3 way and you have a strong multi way/implied odds hand.
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nogenius
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 772
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I really don't like PF, not sure about how good flop is either.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
Well first off you should probably switch tables here. Fgators is like a god over at 2p2... and Dougie G is a lite 3bettor, and they both have position on you. This is a standard call for me PF. Your 3 way and you have a strong multi way/implied odds hand.
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The flop is good right too? I'd like to hear more on PF because you're normally on the loose side Jager.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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like i told you... i hate preflop but the flop is good.
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yorib
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 281
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It's very close, you can put Cgators on a very narrow range, say JJ+/AK (if that). Your position is only good if they both check, as any cbet by Cgators pot commits him (with, at a minium, TPTK). Also, given that you only called a raise and a reraise, that puts you on a very narrow range too (either a low/mid pp, or a sc, sc+1). Finally, if Hijacks has a hand like AJ+, the only decision is on the flop. (If it's A high Hijacks will get it all in, if not Cgator gets it all in). You'll have no folding equity on a reraise on the flop since they'll be pot committed (baring mono or straight flops).
I don't think you'll have the odds to call (push over) a cbet with a draw or a pair. With deeper stacks, I think it's a great call.
The push is strictly a judgement call. Can Cgator lay down KK/QQ on an A high flop? Would CGAtor check a flop like this with AA/JJ? Would Hijack check this flop with AK/AQ?
Finally, is there any way that Hijack folds AK/AQ if Cgator folds.
Then again, you're the one with the reads. I'm curious how it turned out.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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I think that if you hit preflop or if they have a bad flop SOME players have a tendancy to give up. I am sure Fgators would fold...not sure about Hijack though. I would not have pushed, maybe bet like 40ish.
I don't think If i'm in a situation where it may or may not be +EV, but if I hit I am almost assurd of getting a stack, I play. I would also call this PF with any pair, SC, or any good implied odds hand. Also Gators is probably squeezing here with anything from a SC to QTo. I don't think he has anything. As played you are repping 99, which is why I think a more value type flop bet in position might be better.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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preflop is standard for me but postflop sucks
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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preflop is marginal at 100bb but seems o.k. based on your reads
I think betting 45$ on the flop reps more strength (of course with intention of calling a push).
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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betting any amount on this flop seems bad (maybe im thinking too first level)
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
Well first off you should probably switch tables here. Fgators is like a god over at 2p2...
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if by 'god' you mean one of the most hated posters there, and one that had a 100? buyin 'downswing' because he is so bad, then I'd agree.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
Well first off you should probably switch tables here. Fgators is like a god over at 2p2...
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if by 'god' you mean one of the most hated posters there, and one that had a 100? buyin 'downswing' because he is so bad, then I'd agree. |
Rofl. I got 400 hands on each and I'd say they're nothing special. DougieD is a 15/10 nit and the other guy is spewy in spots he shouldnt be (overvalues blind defense and cbets a bit much, counter to what OP's original read is).
That being said, folding preflop in Hand 1 is fairly standard. What the hell are you trying to rep here postflop? Strength???
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
Well first off you should probably switch tables here. Fgators is like a god over at 2p2...
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if by 'god' you mean one of the most hated posters there, and one that had a 100? buyin 'downswing' because he is so bad, then I'd agree. |
Rofl. I got 400 hands on each and I'd say they're nothing special. DougieD is a 15/10 nit and the other guy is spewy in spots he shouldnt be (overvalues blind defense and cbets a bit much, counter to what OP's original read is).
That being said, folding preflop in Hand 1 is fairly standard. What the hell are you trying to rep here postflop? Strength??? |
weakness? 
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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I have 700 hands on DougieG20 18/14/6<---
I don't think Fgators is that great, but every time one of the $100nl players at 2p2 get in a hand against him the headline is 'BIG HAND vs FGators HOW'D I DO??????'
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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With an $80 stack in a $50 pot, it's pretty standard for me to just push with any hand I'm betting.
What exactly are opponents checking the flop with that is calling the push/a $40 bet?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Probably more importantly what kind of flop is anyone betting? Is there one?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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one that makes me at least 40% against an overpair usually
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
one that makes me at least 40% against an overpair usually
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I think an overpair is calling against my image.... Acutally, maybe they could convince themselves of a fold.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
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a 28/19 who never bets the flop without a hand? Are you sure?
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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PF is OK, but high variance. Flop... I just think one of them has a big ace and doesn't fold. Also, 1 low card would be better because at least then you could have a set. All you can have here is 2 pair/draw... and they might not believe AJ/A9.
Finally, you have lots of redraw outs, so I kind of like a free card. Danger there is that one of them bets the turn and you will have to fold.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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I'm interested to know what player 3bets preflop then doesnt lead the flop? I think there is strong chance you're getting taken for a ride.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I'm interested to know what player 3bets preflop then doesnt lead the flop? I think there is strong chance you're getting taken for a ride.
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In a multiway pot with A high and you have KK/QQ, your a nit, and you don't cbet when you dont hit. That's what.
I'd also like to say that they both instafolded, but im not going to be result oriented.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I'm interested to know what player 3bets preflop then doesnt lead the flop? I think there is strong chance you're getting taken for a ride.
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In a multiway pot with A high and you have KK/QQ, your a nit, and you don't cbet when you dont hit. That's what. |
What would the non-nits at FTR do? Checking an A high flop with KK/QQ to induce a bluff was the hot shit round here.
About the results orientedness...
Code:
Board: 9c Ad Js
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 20.821% 20.82% 00.00% 44523 0.00 { T9s, T9o }
Hand 1: 79.179% 79.18% 00.00% 169317 0.00 { KK-QQ, AQs+ }
p = prob they fold
we want ev > 0
prob fold * pot + prob don't fold( equity*pot - villain's equity*bet) > 0
p * 54 + (1-p) (0.21*137 - .79*85) > 0
54p + (1-p)(-38) > 0
92p > 38
p > 40% for zero eV
So if hero gets called, his expectation is -38, if he doesn't get called it's +54. If villain folds 50% of the time this has an expectation of +$8. I can't say if 50% is reasonable. (and I hope my maths are right)
It also wouldn't kill you to start using the hand converter
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Dislexsik
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On the grind
Posts: 832
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Postflop sucks
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Well given your EV calc swigg i guess postflop is bad. Except everyone here seems to not care about my read on Fgators that he doesn't cbet if he doesn't have a hand (he's also straightforward) and No reads on Hijack the box but they both almost insta checked I really think I may take this down >50% of the time.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Like I said Gators is squeezing this hand, he has very little and won't stack off with the Axx flop. Hijack has probably got a smaller PP maybe even TT, and he isn't stacking off on the Axx flop either.
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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Warpe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
preflop is standard for me but postflop sucks
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Probably more importantly what kind of flop is anyone betting? Is there one?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
one that makes me at least 40% against an overpair usually
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gabe, do you ever bluff this flop?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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no, i never ever ever ever would pure bluff in this spot
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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If you're going to bet push is bad, you could bet 3/4 the pot and have it work out the same way and you'd save your stack. I'd be more likely to do that than push FWIW. Also, this isn't complete bluff. He has bottom pair and 2 backdoor draws; thats the nuts.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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yea i check and hope to pick up alot more outs before trying to bluff
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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I think that checking this flop is bad. The reraiser was the first to check this flop, and the PF cold caller also checked. You have been given an opportunity to take this pot down, why not bet?
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
I think that checking this flop is bad. The reraiser was the first to check this flop, and the PF cold caller also checked. You have been given an opportunity to take this pot down, why not bet?
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because villans checks don't really mean weakness in this spot
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
I think that checking this flop is bad. The reraiser was the first to check this flop, and the PF cold caller also checked. You have been given an opportunity to take this pot down, why not bet?
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because villans checks don't really mean weakness in this spot |
Well one villan is straight forward, so your half wrong.
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