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Genitruc
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10-27-2008, 03:51 AM
Post subject: Poker hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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I am donking away RB money on Teh Tilt.
I run up a stack at nl600 at a good table. To my left are 2 seemingly solid opponents (I never play Teh Tilt), one being Steveyea (spewy tagg) and the other one being some guy with a name like DonkeyBrane or something. Seems tight but tricksy.
I raise btn w  
Brane calls out of the BB.
Flop is   
I bet close to pot he calls
Turn is 
I bet 101 into 113ish
He raises to 276$
Eff stacks before starting hand are 840ish.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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also what do you ppl like with KQ or AA?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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i would check the flop or the turn with any of those hands
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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and related question : how often should I expect to get check-raised on this turn? and by what kind of a range?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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i would check the flop or the turn with any of those hands
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Why check the nut straight here on such a drawy board?
I'd never check any street with AK, given how my draws are on board, and so many hands like KJ/KT/combo's will call the first two streets with equity but maybe not a river barrel. I'd check AA a fair bit for pot control.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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griff - He never mentions having AK here.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
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i would check the flop or the turn with any of those hands
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Why check the nut straight here on such a drawy board?
I'd never check any street with AK, given how my draws are on board, and so many hands like KJ/KT/combo's will call the first two streets with equity but maybe not a river barrel. I'd check AA a fair bit for pot control. |
ooh thanks kmind
my bad nuts.. thought gen wrote AK and AA
though I'm probably betting KQ again too (for the same reasons as bareling AK) and also since I don't expect villain to have AK or K9 much ever and I feel like 89 is raising this flop a lot.
His turn c/r is weird, I'd just drop it. We could even have tainted outs to our straight if he has combo draw with a FD, not to mention drawing dead already.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
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i would check the flop or the turn with any of those hands
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Why check the nut straight here on such a drawy board?
I'd never check any street with AK, given how my draws are on board, and so many hands like KJ/KT/combo's will call the first two streets with equity but maybe not a river barrel. I'd check AA a fair bit for pot control. |
ooh thanks kmind
my bad nuts.. thought gen wrote AK and AA
though I'm probably betting KQ again too (for the same reasons as bareling AK) and also since I don't expect villain to have AK or K9 much ever and I feel like 89 is raising this flop a lot.
His turn c/r is weird, I'd just drop it. We could even have tainted outs to our straight if he has combo draw with a FD, not to mention drawing dead already. |
so u don t like shoving
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I mean... I have nooo clue what he has here. It doesn't really make that much sense, but at the same time he's for sure ahead of us.
I just can't imagine what hand he could have here that would c/r with the intention of folding, unless it was complete complete air. All of his value hands would be content to just c/c here and most of them have insiders and stuff.
He probably has like QJ spades or something.. or maybe AQ spades
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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I kind of like shoving here - you're obviously behind but AK is in your range sooooo much more than his. a reg will typically always 3 bet AK button vs blind.
If you shove here he will have to put you on AK almost all the time as he knows you know he has a strong hand.
However, is he good enough to know that you know he knows you have AK a huge % of the time in this spot, so you don't actually expect him to call? If the answer is yes then I'd probably just pitch the hand.
I really think his range is either 2 pair or a straight and both of those are waaaaaay behind AK so it's a really tough call for him if you do shove.
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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Just fold and find a better spot, when he calls from the blind, calls the flop and re-raises that turn his hand is heavily weighted towards 2 pair, flopped straight, or a pair and straight draw and a K could be a tainted out for us.
I doubt he does this with air often enough to warrant a RR or shove. With the board being so draw heavy and the fact you close to full pot the flop, he expects you to have half a hand so does not do this as a complete bluff too lightly IMO. Then again it is a great spot for a bluff because he can represent such a strong hand and push you off TP or 2pair hands.
But in general I'd just fold in this spot, your behind too often to make this a +EV play in the long run.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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am i clinically insane if I called turn and then called a fullt pot shove on a river blank
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
am i clinically insane if I called turn and then called a fullt pot shove on a river blank
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Really depends on feel, momentum and timing I guess.
I mean he could have just have had a FD on the flop and got crazy if it missed, or even picked up a turn FD.
Normally i'd say your behind though. I mean AK flopped broadway, 89 did and your behind K10, QJ,Q9,J9,J10 and other such mixed combo hands with already a pair.
Unless he had like a 34 suited or even 55 and wanted to blow you off, I just do not see what your beating with 3rd pair on that board minus a missed FD or a lower PP
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Luke999
Just fold and find a better spot, when he calls from the blind, calls the flop and re-raises that turn his hand is heavily weighted towards 2 pair, flopped straight, or a pair and straight draw and a K could be a tainted out for us.
I doubt he does this with air often enough to warrant a RR or shove. With the board being so draw heavy and the fact you close to full pot the flop, he expects you to have half a hand so does not do this as a complete bluff too lightly IMO. Then again it is a great spot for a bluff because he can represent such a strong hand and push you off TP or 2pair hands.
But in general I'd just fold in this spot, your behind too often to make this a +EV play in the long run.
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This is an example of the ISF theorem?
you probably ARE behind, however you can get him to fold better..
To the calling then calling a blank river...No, I can see a call here depending on how capable he is at thin value betting....usually the guy has such a polarized range for betting the river after you call the turn reraise.
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Toadstool
This is an example of the ISF theorem?
you probably ARE behind, however you can get him to fold better..
To the calling then calling a blank river...No, I can see a call here depending on how capable he is at thin value betting....usually the guy has such a polarized range for betting the river after you call the turn reraise.
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Depends if you think he is capable of a fold. Unless he puts you on the stonecold nuts like AK or 2nd nuts like 89 I doubt your getting a fold from 2pair or a massive combo draw, and even if villan has TP/2nd Pair with a big draw and misses they will still shove the river in certain situations to rep a monster that got there on the flop.
What is he thin value betting that we beat and call? A low pp? 810????
And with calling the turn re-raise our hand can look like a draw itself or exactly what it is hoping for a blank river so when villan shoves the river it is rarely with a hand we beat even if he itends it to be a bluff, unless it really is a low PP or a missed FD that doesnt have TP/2nd pair.
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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The thin value betting comment was meant as, some people aren't capable of value betting thin at all. As an extreme example some people aren't capable of value betting 89 there. If he wasn't capable of value betting 89 there and he bets the river, then it is either K9/AK or air.....and air makes up a much higher % of his range.
Air - 85%
K9+ - 15%
If the lowest he is capable of value betting is QJ then his range is more like
Air - 60%
QJ + - 40%
And so on and so on....
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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ya I called turn and called river
he showed 79cc or QJ I forget which one
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
ya I called turn and called river
he showed 79cc or QJ I forget which one
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wait so you dont remeber if you won or not?
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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el oh el
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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NH!!
I thought you were clinically insane all along though.
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Just playing to improve.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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ya he had 79cc
edit : oh shit I actually was fking baked and remember waking up from a nightmare where he had QJo. I'll have to wrack my brains to remember
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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5 spades, awesome thread!
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Just playing to improve.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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not joking... I srsly don t remember what happened. I called riv and he either shipped the pot w QJ or shipped it to me w 79cc. I remember talking about both situations w buddies I was live-donking with at the time. Then I remember dreaming about the hand.
I was so fking baked that even my FTP balance doesn't mean anything, since it definitely swonged all over the place that night and I don't use Ptracker or HEM when I'm donking RB money.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
not joking... I srsly don t remember what happened. I called riv and he either shipped the pot w QJ or shipped it to me w 79cc.
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lol this is awesome
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Its a great twist on "results dont matter".
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Just playing to improve.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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lol they don t matter if you don t remember!
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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both getting this in and not remembering the results are consistent with you being clinically insane so i guess i believe that you don't remember.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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god i was so baked
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Quote:
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both getting this in and not remembering the results are consistent with you being clinically insane so i guess i believe that you don't remember.
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additional proof that our mod is always right
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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just a sidenote : this took place after serious intoxication with the aid of various substances after the 7 hr drive back from UFC 90. I was baked, exhausted and depressed.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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Ha ha 
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
just a sidenote : this took place after serious intoxication with the aid of various substances after the 7 hr drive back from UFC 90. I was baked, exhausted and depressed.
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don't play poker like this yo! no good can come from it
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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yeah just check teh flop and fold any turn bet. You need a specific reason for betting flop, something like "i intend to bet all turns and shove all rivers and make him fold his whole range," which has some merit i guess. But you can't just autobet flop without a plan.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
yeah just check teh flop and fold any turn bet. You need a specific reason for betting flop, something like "i intend to bet all turns and shove all rivers and make him fold his whole range," which has some merit i guess. But you can't just autobet flop without a plan.
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what u said (about the turn/river)
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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i still don't know if thats optimal though. perhaps its better to run the 3 barrel bluff with nut outs or total air and then just check down with this.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
i still don't know if thats optimal though. perhaps its better to run the 3 barrel bluff with nut outs or total air and then just check down with this.
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ya that makes sense
it just seemed like his flop calling range would have such a tough time stacking off without improving
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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