|
minSim
|
04-24-2008, 08:49 AM
Post subject: Please judge this 3 barrel bluff
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
|
|
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
UTG ($25)
MP ($50.30)
CO ($28.25)
Hero ($25)
SB ($33.50)
BB ($24.65)
Preflop: Hero is Button with T , 8.
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, 2 folds, CO calls $1.
Flop: ($2.85) Q , A , K (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $2, CO calls $2.
Turn: ($6.85) 6 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $4.75, CO calls $4.75.
River: ($16.35) 4 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $17 (All-In)
Final Pot: $50.35
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
wufwugy
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
|
no likey.
first off, check flop often because a ton calls and theres not many scare cards. flush and straight cards are not the best scare cards usually but especially here since he can have a lot of 2p. generally speaking, cbet flops that will bring many scare cards that they will fold to a double. there are many other aspects of cbetting too, just thats one i like.
doubling is no good because his hand hasn't changed much in value. this is partly because the kinds of hands that call the flop are often pair + draw or big draw or ace and often all better hands, but also because the turn is not scary. the card does not make any of his hands look weaker. the only thing that makes any of his hands look weaker is simply that youre firing, and thats not really a good way to go about barreling. i often think sometimes we can get away with that line exclusively, but i do see many players way better than me not do that type of thing much if ever.
i like the triple better than the double because some pair + draw and obv pure draw hands fold, but eh its micros. no need to learn how to bluff down there. learn how to value bet instead. i snap double this board with QK for value so that suggests doubling with air is bad, and i probably value triple QK as well. so take that for what its worth
|
|
|
|
minSim
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
|
|
Not sure if you noticed it or not and how much it changes your perspective, but he limp/called preflop.
Mostly because of that I decided to 3 barrel on the flop already, as long as no draws were hitting.
Your paragraph about which turns to consider doubling is already insightfull tho.
|
|
|
|
Marshall28
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
|
|
i dont have a theoretical reason for why double barreling this board is good, i've just had so much success double barreling it that i just tend to default towards it.
i think maybe because most players that have some type of 2nd pr or 3rd pr +gutshot will call the 1st one, but will let it go on the turn since htey will put u on an ace or a made astriaght or 2 pr and figure they are drawing to just 4 outs or whatever.
however. firing the 3rd barrel i think is suicide. if he's calling the first two, theres no way he's folding the t3rd.
|
|
|
|
Marshall28
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
|
|
and with regards to limp calling .... players nowadays seem to limp call such weird fricken hands, i've had aces, AK, AQ, KQs, jacks .. .all limp called on me recently ... i end up stacking off w/ 9s as an overpr or tptk and run into these monsters, it's really forced me to reduce my double barreling frequency vs limp callers til i know more about their range and what they are doing it with and what their plan is ...
dunno how much this insight can help u, but it's really cost me multiple buy ins lately.
|
|
|
|
wufwugy
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
|
the limp call doesn't change much since he's unknown. its gonna be hard to get him off QJ with a double imo. this is 25nl, and like i said, focus on valuing instead of bluffing.
a big reason to focus on valuing first is that it aids with figuring out what to bluff. if you value bet thinly well then you can see more scenarios where you may wanna bluff yet dont because you realize youd actually value bet real thin there, and there's no need to balance ranges.
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
2/10, horrible.
I never three-barrel limp callers without scarecards.
|
|
|
|
dalecooper
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
|
|
I don't like it, mostly for reasons already mentioned. 2nd barrel isn't atrocious but the 3rd barrel is basically flashing a "please fold" sign at someone who isn't very likely to fold.
Another thing not mentioned - for me at least, multi-barrelling is very read-dependant. Did you have any read on this guy, other than the obvious one that he's weak/passive? I'd like some indication that he's capable of folding a reasonable hand on this board before I commit my whole stack to trying to make him fold. Some people will chronically call a bet or two but fold to the big bet later in the hand - and some people will doggedly call you down with about anything & no matter the bet size. I prefer to have some indication of which way the guy leans before I do what you did here.
|
|
|
|
meeloche
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
|
|
wufwugy pretty much covered everything I was going to say.
O well I'll just lower my wpp.
|
|
|
|
Hawk
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 367
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by wufwugy
generally speaking, cbet flops that will bring many scare cards that they will fold to a double. there are many other aspects of cbetting too, just thats one i like.
|
This part (and your sig obv) caught my eye. That's something I haven't thought about before.
thx for posting.
|
|
|
|
mixchange
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
|
|
the board needs to change for people to fold. ask yourself why he folds because of the 4 of diamonds?
|
|
|
|
minSim
|
|
04-25-2008, 08:11 AM
Post subject: Results and closing words
|
#12 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mixchange
the board needs to change for people to fold. ask yourself why he folds because of the 4 of diamonds?
|
Of course you know it, but this ain't the whole story. In general my range get's smaller the more streets I bet, even with only blanks hitting. (i.e. I'm not very often double barreling my whole c-betting range on a blank turn).
But points taken from everyone...ty.
Villain called with AQo, which I did put in his calling range....so it didn't gave me any answers as to wether my play is profitable against his range.
At the time I actually felt pretty fine with the play I made, because I was representing something for 3 streets, while planning the hand from the beginning. I also thought an unknown would fold as much as weak A's, but the comments are unanimous that that ain't true.
Lessons learned.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
its 25nl
|
|
|
|
minSim
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
its 25nl
|
You made the same comment in my other thread as well, and I partly agree with you. I fully agree with the point that there are other things at 25NL that are far more important.
As a side note, I rather try these things out on a level I'm way overroled for which makes me not hampered by any weak-tight feelings, or tilting myself with it.
Also, I'm opening up my range from nitty 15/13 style to something like 20/17 and am just trying to explore things (not necessarily meaning this hand has anything to do with it)...but it's more something of a learning process to not only play my own cards, trying to win more pots without showdown, etc.
Last thing is, even the micro games get tougher and more agressive. It's not uncommon to see one or two 25/20 types at a general 25NL PP 6max table these days (actually these days PP is harder then i.e. PS or euro sites). Of course most of them still make huge mistakes, but for some these have changed a bit from calling stations, to overagression or nittyness. If for example my BTN raises get 3-bet like a monkey, I rather try to exploit that once or twice before moving tables. In the end, there is value in exploiting.
|
|
|
|
Robb
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,074
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by minSim
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
its 25nl
|
If for example my BTN raises get 3-bet like a monkey, I rather try to exploit that once or twice before moving tables. In the end, there is value in exploiting. |
Best comment so far: "no likey."
Different reason for me. I'm not 3 barrelling the table, I'm 3 barrelling a single villain. And I'm not doing it without a read. Save your 3 barrel until you know more.
|
|
|
|
dalecooper
|
|
04-26-2008, 09:15 PM
Post subject: Re: Results and closing words
|
#16 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by minSim
Villain called with AQo, which I did put in his calling range....so it didn't gave me any answers as to wether my play is profitable against his range.
|
This is really the problem with bluffing into this type of player in general. He shows up with a solid hand sometimes and when he does, you lose everything you've bet; and depending exactly how much of a station he is, he might do this same thing with worse than AQ. (The fact that he just called down with AQ and never acted as the aggressor with what was likely the best hand is telling - he's probably flat calling with a pretty wide range, from both weak to very strong hands.)
I have a friend who chronically loses a lot of big bets trying to bluff unknowns at lower stakes and I have been preaching to him to lay off until you know they can fold. Same thing here. It's so easy to exploit players at this level by value betting - why try to force them off hands they don't want to let go of?
|
|
|
|
AnTman_69
|
|
04-28-2008, 01:05 AM
Post subject: Re: Results and closing words
|
#17 (permalink)
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by minSim
Villain called with AQo, which I did put in his calling range....so it didn't gave me any answers as to wether my play is profitable against his range.
|
This is really the problem with bluffing into this type of player in general. He shows up with a solid hand sometimes and when he does, you lose everything you've bet; and depending exactly how much of a station he is, he might do this same thing with worse than AQ. (The fact that he just called down with AQ and never acted as the aggressor with what was likely the best hand is telling - he's probably flat calling with a pretty wide range, from both weak to very strong hands.)
I have a friend who chronically loses a lot of big bets trying to bluff unknowns at lower stakes and I have been preaching to him to lay off until you know they can fold. Same thing here. It's so easy to exploit players at this level by value betting - why try to force them off hands they don't want to let go of? |
Nice post... i totally agree. I to get into trouble trying to play to tricky with players that aren't thinking on the same level. It's costing me money.
|
|
|
|
Genitruc
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
|
|
bet less on river. like 12
|
|
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
Linear Mode
