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JL
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02-24-2008, 07:16 AM
Post subject: Please help me play 99 better!
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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I have a lot of trouble playing 99 past the flop. Any advice would be appreciated.
Villain here is 22/12.5 and he seems solid...I've played over 500 hands with him and he has never gotten out of line.
Possible timing tell: he took a while to call my raise on the flop.
Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $188.35
CO: $179.55
Button: $354.55
Hero: $198.00
BB: $108.75
Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with 9  9 
2 folds, Button raises to $8, Hero calls, BB folds.
Flop: 3  2 6 ($18, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $15, Hero raises to $45, Button calls.
Turn: Q ($108, 2 players)
Hero
I am unsure about my flop play too. I used to just call the flop a lot here. However, after reading lots of ISF's posts, I figured because my range is ahead of villain's range, I should raise here??
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ChrisTheFish
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Huddersfield, England
Posts: 492
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Personally, i'd 3 bet pre.
As played, just lead. CR'ing just builds a big pot and you don't really know where your at yet..
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Leading this turn against solid player is donating money.
I would only c/r the flop if I'm planning to call a shove. Against this player I would not do that. As played c/f + c/f and it's not even close.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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3 bet pf
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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would be nice to know stealing numbers for pre. other than that probably just c/c flop.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Leading this turn against solid player is donating money.
I would only c/r the flop if I'm planning to call a shove. Against this player I would not do that. As played c/f + c/f and it's not even close.
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I expect you will c/c flop? What is your turn plan on a flop c/c?
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Eaaaasy 3ball pre.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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What are you guys talking about calling is better/just as good.
I think I'd just play pot control versus this type of player even though our hand is vunerable.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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letting villain draw to 2-6 outs for the price he chooses is the best option here imo in exchange for protecting our stack
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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3betting is an option, however will get you into some very tough spots postflop.
a line i like to take w/ this hand on a board like this is to check/call the flop and lead out on an innocuous turn, like the Q isnt so innocuous, so here is where i ask myself "is this the type of villain who is likely to double barrel a scare card, but not capable of triple barrelling w/ air? if the answer is yes, i check call the turn and check the river expecting him to check behind when he missed and to fire when he hit.
obv u can see how playing it this way can be exploitable by good players. but there just arent enough of them out there to realize what you're doing that balancing your range here is pretty much unnecessary
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Calling puts us in more difficult situations than 3betting.
The player to our right is our bitch, and if we're not tilting him we're doing something wrong. Obviously we should be pounding on him less when we're in sb, but when we have a good hand we should play it just like we play our other shit. This equals more pounding and more image depreciation.
Also with 3betting we look stronger and are taking the lead. This is way better than relying more on playing more dynamic streets oop. Seriously oop is so bad for us that cold calling oop should actually probably never be standard.
Obviously we're gonna be in tough spots no matter how we play this, but not any moreso in 3bet pot. Villain will play standard against us, and once he doesn't we are where we want to be and need to adjust. Even without image projection I find 3betting better.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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wufwugy u really agree w/ u, ive just been trying to steer away from giving advice based on projections of my own style since in general most people here are going to misconstrue it and make tremendous mistakes. rather ive been trying to think about hero's image and how he should play the hand given the dynamics of his particular situation.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Yea you're right about catering responses to each post, but I do still think in a vacuum it's better to 3bet pretty much any hand over cold calling oop. Part of my reasoning is personal; I have spent much more time 3ballin than cold callin so when I do call I'm kinda lost, but apart from that I theorize that 3betting cleans up our options and simply just makes it easier for us to profit. It's kind of a jopke around 2p2, but really making bold aggressive moves and putting villain at decisions for all his chips has got to be better than a more passive line in more dynamic situations where we'll be playing more streets oop than we want to.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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i definitely agree with u, if u know anything about me or have read any of the stuff in my blog i pretty much say the same type of stuff ...
however i think there are two other issues here ... 1 ... the game flow of the table ... how many times have u just 3bet this guy in this situation, how light is he opening the buttton, how light is he calling our 3 bets or 4betting us....
2nd issue ... how high variance of a style do u wanna play? higher variance = 3bet and play big pots, lower variance .. cold call and pot control. both are viable options.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Hmm you bring up something interesting I've been needing to figure out.
Let's say we're trying to tilt somebody and lose all respect by 3betting them constantly. At what point in this endeavor do we fist pump snap 3bet/shove over 4bet when he opens LP and we have 99?
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
What are you guys talking about calling is better/just as good.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Hmm you bring up something interesting I've been needing to figure out.
Let's say we're trying to tilt somebody and lose all respect by 3betting them constantly. At what point in this endeavor do we fist pump snap 3bet/shove over 4bet when he opens LP and we have 99?
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thats something u have to feel in your gut based on timing tells and your 3betting frequency in relation to his 4bets, and his 4bet sizing. i can tell you there are plenty of times where i just feel it in my gut that the dude isnt calling and i 5bet jam air. when i played higher stakes i would do it constantly.
the thing about 9s is ..like ... unless the dude is getting it in w/ 88 and worse, it's pretty much the equivalent of 22. Reasoning is ... villain might get it in for value w/ AK/AQ/AJ but he has to be on a pure bluff in order for 9s to be good preflop. hot and cold it just doesn't run well. there are too many hands that villain is straight bluffing that have a ton of equity, and the smaller the pair is, the less and less likely villain is to be bluffing w/ it as i'm sure he is going to prefer to set mine w/ 88 77 66 55 etc, or just call to hope for a decent looking flop to be getting it in on. for these reasons i really just dont like getting 9s in preflop.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Triptanes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
What are you guys talking about calling is way better shut your stupid faces before you get body slammed.
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The Odds God
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 252
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I prefer 3betting preflop even if I am reraising him all the time. I understand your posts, Marshall, and it is not a bad thinking. But if he decides to 4bet preflop, you will probably put the last bet, 5 bet all in with a hand that has a good equity against his range. If he goes crazy and 4bets all in for a big overbet, you will also be ahead of his range and will call him.
The only problem is if he is the type of a guy who will just call preflop and try to make a move postflop rather than preflop. This sucks because you will see overcards with your 99. But some overs might scare him from playing back at you and you won't be in tough spots. Plus you will play better in a 3bet in this situation than your average opponent so I prefer a 3bet almost always.
But there are spots where cold calling with 99 is better. I can't think of any in the moment. Maybe against a very good aggressive opponent. I will give it a thought. I am pretty sure I came across that situation at the tables.
Probably a bs I am talking here, it is late.
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The secret to success in poker is to rig the odds in your favor.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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If villain is very good aggressive we should consider leaving the table. Fortunately he's not to our left, but what's more important than not having a good lag to our left is having a loose bad player to our right imo.
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