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Playing the Worst Players on the Planet

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Galapogos

01-03-2007, 04:38 PM Post subject: Playing the Worst Players on the Planet

#1 (permalink)

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How do you guys play these people? At the Ongame 5 and 6 max tables they are mostly filled with these horrible call station donks. There will be one decent player at the most sitting there. Basically, a 25NL FR table plays better.

The issue is, these stations are just fucking raping me lately. I can't put them on a hand, they will call raises and reraises with anything they "feel lucky" about at that time. It doesn't help that I am going through a downswing and can't hit a flop for the life of more. Or of course if I do hit no one has anything. And I will look on wistfully as one dummy stacks another because his Q5o top pair held and the other didn't hit the ace he was chasing. Point is, I'm not being outplayed, I would admit this.

Question: Does this mean I should start playing every pot with these players like it's an unraised pot since they literally could have anything? Or should I just play FR?

I know I should be happy to have these guys at my table but it just seems more like gambling like this where with some semi-decent opponents I can steal pots and put them on hands etc.

BTW as I wrote this my AA was cracked by J2o off a J54 flop.

Or am I just being a varience baby?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

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jyms

01-03-2007, 04:52 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I can't help, but I can tell you, when your running bad, this shit is going to feel like it will never end. It'll drive you into submission if you don't get out of it. I ran just as bad as this and my thoughts were the same. When you figure it out let me know. Your not the first, but when someone solves the dilemma your facing, we all will be better off. GL. I tried to stick it out, for a month and lost half my roll. I had no idea what I was playing against, no idea what they could be betting with or if they were bluffing. Everytime I got bad beat, i was done. I stared at PT on the other monitor. Every hand I won and lost I looked at the ($$$) figures. Next day same thing, I'm telling you this because you need to snap out of it. You need to do something. Don't just say variance. Don't just think it'll come around. Do something.

Try a change, sites, stakes, FR anything. I personally have moved to a new site to play FR for a bit at a lower stake till my head is right. 3 months destroyed me. Sorry this is about you, just wanted to let you know, we're with ya.

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Galapogos

01-03-2007, 05:02 PM

#3 (permalink)

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I play half my tables as FR and half as SH. The FR ones are constantly profitable. These guys play poker and I can outplay them. SH when I run bad there's nothing I can do to stiffle these losses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

swiggidy

01-03-2007, 05:06 PM

#4 (permalink)

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I'm so sad I can't pay at Ongame anymore

When people are this bad don't try to put them on a hand. They'll tell you when they're good (i.e. min-raising the turn may mean flopped set for one, donk betting the turn is hitting 2 pair on the turn for another).

Decide what's typically good and roll with it. If TPGK is enough bet it. Maybe not all 3 streets where you're stacking off, but you should get one big bet out of it.

Are they still passive post-flop (i.e. either not betting or betting some stupid small amount)? Don't try to steal with raises, play more drawing hands, play more hands period (especially in position). Don't semi-bluff as much, just chase and bet big when you hit. You'll get called often enough.

I think you're being a variance baby.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

benny999

01-03-2007, 07:29 PM

#5 (permalink)

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I'll trade you ub for ongame and give you at least 5ptbb/100...

seriously I'm pretty sure you know how to beat calling stations (value bet more, bluff less, induce some of their desperation river bluffs, etc.)
I bet it's variance, just stick it out and post more hand histories.

ihategnomes

01-03-2007, 07:39 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Are you making the correct adjustments from FR to SH?

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<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

01-03-2007, 08:05 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,855

don't be worse than the worst players on the planet?

I mean seriously, if the games are *that* good you should be able to beat them quite handily. Yeah, you'll have higher variance and probably take more bad beats, but geeze, keep getting your money in there with the best of it and let it all work itself out.

thnwkd

01-03-2007, 11:22 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: Bahamas

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hmm... sounds like i'd better get over there. thanks for info, good looking out....

oh yea... run good

Success is how high you bounce after hitting bottom.

IslandGrinder

vegascoop

01-04-2007, 03:04 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 224

Sounds like you're describing the players at absolute also.

Raise more and bigger pre-flop since they'll call with crap.

Make bigger value bets on the flop. Full pot it.

Don't play your draws aggressively since you lose fold equity.

Harry

01-04-2007, 04:36 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Don't loosen up to compensate them.... become a nit.

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Galapogos

01-04-2007, 02:35 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry

Don't loosen up to compensate them.... become a nit.

That's what I have been doing, no one there will refuse to give you action because you've only played 1 in 50000 hands. I am pretty much just reduced to set hunting and getting in cheap with drawing hands. Fnord made mention in a post a while ago that if you're not raising good hands in late position you're leaving money on the table, but that just won't work here.

I'm making some adjustments to stop some of my losses here. I just hope they aren't too varience based and that I won't be losing value on winning hands in the long run.

Side Note: After this rant I went to exclusively FR for the rest of the day and made the money I lost back. Then with my regained confidence I went back to SH 100NL and lost ~$300 in 5 minutes. KK cracked my AA, JJ vs an ace chaser who hit on the river, and flopped 2 pair AK vs a guy who couldn't fold JJ and spiked the river. *sigh* I gotta admit it made me laugh though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

DubRod

01-04-2007, 03:18 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2005

Posts: 112

Maybe your game is not tweaked for Shorthanded. Overpairs loose in value at SHNL and its all about position, postflop play and implied odds. Being a nit wont bring you much, good players will avoid you or call in multihanded pots with good implied odds while having you on premium hands.

If you dont have a good positional and raising strategy, where you most often have hand control, I dont see how you can be a longterm winner.

biondino

01-04-2007, 03:39 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Overpairs loose in value at SHNL and its all about position, postflop play and implied odds.

Are you sure about overpairs losing value? Clearly they GAIN absolute value as there are fewer hands dealt and more marginal hands played. But I agree that the aggression shown by many 6max players does mean that an unimproved overpair can feel pretty vulnerable and/or lead you into a lot of trouble.

Galapogos

01-04-2007, 04:30 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DubRod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

no one there will refuse to give you action because you've only played 1 in 50000 hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Point is, I'm not being outplayed, I would admit this.

The question is, should I play these pots like unraised pots? Or am I just thinking short term? The problem is I am making plays following some sense of logic. ie. Today I make top set on the flop. Guy calls me down to the river and then goes all-in. The only hand that could beat me is if he runner runnered a flush. Of course he did. Someone asked him why he chased and he said if he hit his flush he would stack me. Brilliant!!

But whatever I'm over it. Still getting stung by the bad beats but I've stopped raising hands with implied odds etc. No point in building a pot if these guys will call any bet on any board with TPTK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

jackvance

01-04-2007, 06:09 PM

#15 (permalink)

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jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

Against these guys all you can really do to combat this is overplay your made hands.. raising harder preflop and overbetting the pot postflop should be no exception. If possible also try to get it allin on the turn when they are still drawing.

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

Vihtavuori

01-05-2007, 06:56 AM

#16 (permalink)

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I have noticed a big difference in Ongame NL100 and NL200 SH games. I think NL200 games are much more weak tighter than NL100 games.

What I have found important is spotting those calling stations and really bad players in your table and taking notes. Watch what cards they are playing and how they play them. The hands they raise, min bet, over bet etc. and make notes about those patterns. Do they donk bet made draws or overbet missed draws, do they raise only with 2 pairs or better etc. You can do this easily with hand history which shows also mucked cards.

Try to find what size of pots with what strength of hand with each player you can play. With some bad players TPWK or MP might be enough to win big pots.

As written already with your good hands make them pay maximum what you think they will pay. If they want to pay pot bet on flop and turn on draws it's only good for you. Sometimes they hit their draws even if there's only 1 out but they pay big price for it in long term.

Use also the possibilities to see cheap flop with draw cards. One good flop may give y0u big session bonus against bad players.

Use PAHud to see how much they cold call preflop and flop. Based on this you can think about your CBet if flop didn't hit your hand.

And don't bluff the fish!

dsaxton

01-05-2007, 08:22 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Bad players are unbeatable because they're so lucky.

Fnord

01-05-2007, 08:25 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

If people are stacking off with absurd holding in un-raised pots, then you can skip building pots and see lots of flops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Galapogos

01-05-2007, 02:27 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Bad players are unbeatable because they're so lucky.

Lol, that's what it was feeling like this week.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

If people are stacking off with absurd holding in un-raised pots, then you can skip building pots and see lots of flops.

This is something I got away from for some reason a while ago. I think it was because I was taking shots at 200NL and at Ongame that's where the player pool seems to follow much more of a game plan. I stopped 200NL thought because my bankroll wasn't quite right for it yet. I've gotten back into getting trash with potential in cheap and it's working for me again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

Fnord

01-05-2007, 03:02 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

This is something I got away from for some reason a while ago.

Most online players don't pay-off big with lukewarm hands in nothing pots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Galapogos

01-06-2007, 03:39 PM

#21 (permalink)

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So the downstreak continues. I think I'm losing so much to these guys because they're so bad I don't give them any respect. So It's quite possible they do have something but I say no fucking way. How much respect do you give shorties?

Example: I sit down and get AA within a couple hands. BB calls with ~60bbs left in his stack. Flop is KQ5 rainbow, I bet 3/4 pot and he pushes. Do you call? I do. Is that bad?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

Warpe

01-06-2007, 04:14 PM

#22 (permalink)

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60bb isn't a shortie. Giving unknowns and players that are "trying to be good" (in Fnord's words) some credit until you have evidence otherwise isn't necessarily a bad thing. A little weak-tight maybe, but not bad. You may lose some value occasionally but other players get cards, too.

Some players don't give any respect at the poker table because they think other players need to earn it. I'm more inclined to give a player respect from the outset and let him lose it.

01-06-2007, 07:10 PM

#23 (permalink)

Full House

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Example: I sit down and get AA within a couple hands. BB calls with ~60bbs left in his stack. Flop is KQ5 rainbow, I bet 3/4 pot and he pushes. Do you call? I do. Is that bad?

I call that everytime.

I know how you are feeling man. I am in the exact same situation.
I play NL100 and NL200 on the Ongame network, and it is insane.

All I can tell you is to stick with it; it's just variance.

This is how my week has gone there:

Last weekend I dropped about $1700 on mostly NL200.
Cashed out $1500 to force myself to play NL100.

Monday-Wednesday I made $3000.

Thursday-Friday I lost about $900.

...and I only play about 1500 hands a day.

The swings are insane on this site, so make sure you have the BR for it.

Also, remember that most of these players are just playing their cards and have no idea what you did 30 hands ago, so building an image isn't really that necessary.

I've noticed that these players never fold the flop, so try to c-bet a lot less, especially on boards such as TJ8 with 2 diamonds etc...
But, when you do hit a set or 2 pair overbet the pot.
My overbets get called so much it's disgusting. Sometimes they think I am bluffing and will bluff me on the turn. Other times once they call my flop bet they believe that they are pot committed now and play for stacks with their pair of 2's.

These guys will call down with any pair. Remember that.
So DONT bluff them!!
Even if they are min-betting the whole way through, or betting $3 into a $20 pot.
Yesterday I raised this donk's Min-bet on the turn and river; on the turn I raised it to $15, and then $20 on the river because I thought he was drawing and he missed...wrong, he had midpair no kicker!

Also, they really hate folding the river, so if you think you have the best hand PUSH! Dont just value bet the river, they will call any bet with any pair.

Well goodluck at the tables!

Oh and if you really want to you can go back to FR for good, and leave all the fish for me

I won't mind at all.

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