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jo
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01-15-2007, 04:40 AM
Post subject: Playing T8s against a re-raise
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Villain has not been sat down long and is unknown to me. What do you think about calling the raise? And then what about the flop? How should I maximize that? I was thinking of maybe just pushing - is that dumb? It seemed like it might have been more likely to have been called by an overpair than a reraise, but maybe I'm off with that.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
BB ($65.25)
UTG ($41.70)
Heroine ($184)
Button ($47.30)
SB ($198)
Preflop: Heroine is MP with T , 8.
1 fold, Heroine raises to $6, 1 fold, SB raises to $18, 1 fold, Heroine calls $12.
Flop: ($38) 8 , 9, T (2 players)
SB bets $28, Heroine raises to $90, SB folds.
Final Pot: $156
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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"Playing T8s against a reraise"
This post thread should be "Don't play T8s against a reraise..."
otherwise you played it fine.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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not sure how you can make pre flop +ev without deeper stacks and/or better reads.
flop seems good - I wouldn't question it so much. pushing would be alright too, but this could induce a push so both are good moves.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Just to try and defend my preflop call (which I'm admittedly not enamored with) it wasn't a huge reraise, and I did have position. Doesn't the 5-10 rule apply here?
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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I was thinking the raise is about 7% of your stack, you only make 2pr+ 5% of the time, and you don't have a read to take the pot post flop.
I could be off on this though, because I don't have much experience calling pf in that spot.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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There's also the times you'll flop a flush or str8 draw. I'd guesstimate you'll flop something favorable about 15% of the time. Total equity vs. AA,KK,AK is about 30%. Plus its a hand you can get away from easily.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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nh, i play everything the same
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StinkyBeaver
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 275
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So you like calling reraises with suited connectors gp..?
Calling reraises is a range I have a hard time figuring usually I'm like AK and PP if I have odds. Along with JJ+ probably but depends on reads.
How about reraising a SC like this in position, what do we think of that play to mix it up.? benefits are that we won't go broke without good draw or two pair.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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if opp is known to three bet hands other than just big pairs then ill take a flop.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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i dont fold to 3 bets!!
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i dont fold to 3 bets!!
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1. is this that confusing 3bet/4bet arguement thing again? I mean reraise.
2. Youre better postflop that most of us and can take the flop. 
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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pushing is prob better cuz thinking villains will usually snap-call with any overpair putting you on a draw ("wouldn't 2pair + = sloooooowplay??? I call!")
but nice hand
and btw, anybody saying fold preflop needs a lot more specific information before confidently telling you to fold preflop. If you had a hand like A9o or something it'd be a much clearer fold preflop. I play the hand almost exactly as you did.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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I call the three bet with reads, not without.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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seems ok to me.. implied odds are way overrated in this particular spot and getting your opponent to fold (applies to when you flop 1p or a draw) is extremely underrated.
as far as flop play goes, when ppl reraise more preflop and bet more on the flop it's an easy push, as-is I guess it's either raise to an amount like what you did or just go with the overbet push. flip a coin or something.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Definetely find another table. Too many short stacks.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Definetely find another table. Too many short stacks.
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??????
ppl buying in with their entire remaining bankroll are how I pay my rent!
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jo
Just to try and defend my preflop call (which I'm admittedly not enamored with) it wasn't a huge reraise, and I did have position. Doesn't the 5-10 rule apply here?
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I'd at least like a read that villain threebets a semi-wide range before I make this call. Although if you play godlike after the flop im sure you can make it profitable vs an unknown. Basically you need to be able to float him some when u miss and he misses, or call him down when u hit a little something and he misses.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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am I the only one who feels that at nl200+ the range of a random 3-bet from someone sitting with 100bb's + is simply waaaay wider that QQ/AK+?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Definetely find another table. Too many short stacks.
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Agreed. Although if you must play against shorties, play hands that don't require implied odds. i.e stay away from low PP and suited connectors, but play more TPGK or TPTK hands.
Postflip Jo, I like the play and think you get stacks from AA-KK here. I would also raise to $90 He basically knows we are playing for stacks here. IMO, he must have whiffed with AK. I don't make a habit of calling pot sized raises with suited gappers, but with small bet sizes and position this play isn't terrible. At minimum, it is probably a high varience play that should be used for table image purposes.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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Not a horrible call PF but I don't like calling random 3-bets from unknowns. There are still a lot of people at this level who just aren't capable of 3-betting you without a huge hand.
I'm sure gabe gets 3-bet by all sorts of random shit because of his image and the level he plays, but if you're just sitting down, ppl just aren't gonna 3-bet you randomly for no reason at 200NL
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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yea, so if they have a hand im more likely to call for implied odds
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
yea, so if they have a hand im more likely to call for implied odds
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and if they don't have a hand, we're in position with a fun hand
don't see what the benefit of folding is
plus if you get to showdown ppl will usually be like "zomg fiiiish IT WAS SOOOOTED"... which has, umm, "exciting implications" 
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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Yea, but if you're not a good postflop player, you're gonna lose a lot when you only partially hit the flop. I guess it depends on how good you play after the flop.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Wow, lots of replies, cool.
Well my aim with calling was to play it very much like a small pocket pair: either hit the flop big (good draw or two pair) or fold. I'd play a one-pair hand very cautiously against an unkown, so I wouldn't lose a lot if I hit the flop marginally.
With regard to the guys 3-betting range, to be honest, I think the tighter the better. It would almost be worse if he was too loose, because we're less likely to be playing for stacks, and bang go my implied odds. It certainly would make postflop play more complex anyways.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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You might be able to make a case for calling against an unknown on the basis of implied odds, but I prefer to know how someone plays before making loose preflop calls like this. You're just going to be making too many mistakes postflop otherwise. It's good that it worked out, but you did have to catch a nearly perfect flop to continue with any confidence.
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
You might be able to make a case for calling against an unknown on the basis of implied odds, but I prefer to know how someone plays before making loose preflop calls like this. You're just going to be making too many mistakes postflop otherwise. It's good that it worked out, but you did have to catch a nearly perfect flop to continue with any confidence.
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This is basically what I was trying to say.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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would anyone who calls their pf mind saying what they would do facing any of these flops, or just any flop you would try to get the opp to fold after they fire the same c-bet:
1- :Qd:  
2-  
3- :Ad:
4- :Ad:  
It seems like getting them to fold once in awhile is a key (although showing down "such crap" helps hehe) to making pre flop +ev, but I figured reads are needed...maybe I'm missing out though.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Benny, its hard to say without thinking about the opponent and your history. For example, I played this hand last night, and the preflop call was partly spurred on by this thread. My reasons were that I had a tight image at this point, and the preflop raiser seemed a straightforward player. In other words, his action on the flop would pretty much signal how much he liked his hand.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Hero ($249.25)
MP ($520.35)
CO ($199.50)
Button ($147)
SB ($192)
BB ($183.15)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with T, 8.
Hero raises to $6, 4 folds, BB raises to $19, Hero calls $13.
Flop: ($39) K, J, 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $21, BB folds.
Final Pot: $60
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Nice post Benny
FWIW I usually raise 1 and 3, call 2 and sometimes fold, sometimes call 4.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Well I am still new at this, but in regards to the preflop call I would have called since it just wasn't a big enough raise. If the guy had raised to $24 preflop, I fold there without a read.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Definetely find another table. Too many short stacks.
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Lol, no. However, I would be less inclined to open T8s given the stack depth.
Also, given the board + game texture + action this flop is a really easy push.
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