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mixchange
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09-11-2007, 12:27 AM
Post subject: Playing the SB when action is folded to button
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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button raises 4x, you have KK, you?
for re-raising: too hard to play without any real knowledge of what opponent has
against re-raising: extra value in small or medium pots
I almost always re-raise only to watch button and BB fold
a lot of people will give your range credit (until you've done it a few times, then you can switch gears), while a lot of people will think you are putting button on a steal
thinking about how much we initially get folds in the above, how often should we be re-raising the button in that situation?
after a couple successful re-steals with trash, do you then seek out a strong hand for the next time? This part of the post applies more to someone you play with regularly, or are at the same table(s) with for a long time.
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JeffreyGB
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I think it depends a lot on how you've been playing. If you have or want to 3-bet a lot, then you have to 3-bet here too. If you've been letting go a lot and haven't been active, then slowplay is a reasonable thought. If you're against a fish who is going to call anyway, then you definitely have to 3-bet.
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Deanglow
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There is a great advantage to playing very loose from the blinds in 6-max. I tend to 3bet 66+, A10+, KQ from SB or BB (to a button raise; my range for raising a CO raise is about 3x as tight). Also once every few orbits I make sure to do it with a SC or nothing. Playing this style gets you a lot more action. What stakes are we discussing here?
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andy-akb
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deanglow
There is a great advantage to playing very loose from the blinds in 6-max. I tend to 3bet 66+, A10+, KQ from SB or BB (to a button raise; my range for raising a CO raise is about 3x as tight). Also once every few orbits I make sure to do it with a SC or nothing. Playing this style gets you a lot more action. What stakes are we discussing here?
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This is also essentially what I was going to post.
In SSNL [100nl-200nl+], the button is very often going to be very loose with their opening range; however, will not be good enough to handle being 3bet lightly. Against somebody opening the button 30%+, I am going to be 3betting a huge range. Doing this is immediately profitable and will also increase the profitability of your big hands.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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reraise it almost everytime. Call only rarely.
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Deanglow
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
reraise it almost everytime. Call only rarely.
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This is very sound advice. Almost never call from the blinds when the button raises. Reraise pre-flop or fold.
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JeffreyGB
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ISF, do you (and in your opinion regs in the tag-and-aware-of-light-3bets) tend to shut down when a fairly competent opponent just calls in SB? I read mix's post as largely commenting on missed value big hands due to getting folds when he didn't necessarily want them.
The solution we're all discussing and that we've discussed before is to 3-bet lighter and more often, but assume you've had utter junk in the blinds for the 5 orbits you've been at the table. You've folded to 3 BU raises, 1 CO, and you folded|stole (take your pick) v BB the other time. Then you get KK. Do you automatically reraise on principle, or just call because you know BU will require a hand to go much further with you?
FWIW, I'm mostly interested in 2/4+ style games, though I'm sure others would be just as interested in thoughts at different stakes. Also, I'm assuming that we're not necessarily playing against an utter fish who will pay us off anyway.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Cool, I am glad I got some replies as this to me comes up all the time and I thought would spark some helpful discussion.
Quote:
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Almost never call from the blinds when the button raises. Reraise pre-flop or fold.
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Wow, powerful thought. I re-raise 50% of the time, then just call the rest. I'll up it, but re-raising makes sense -- it makes the button define their hand a lot more, and gives you good FE right then, and dryish flops
What should we do here? This is probably the worst in my range. Once I was called and missed, should I bet the flop here? Against most players I say yes, as I repped a PP with my 3bet. But anyone that does have a PP is clearly re-raising here.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($302.70)
SB ($269.70)
Hero ($240.15)
UTG ($198.70)
MP ($320.15)
CO ($118.50)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 6 , A.
3 folds, Button raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $16, Button calls $10.
Flop: ($33) 3 , 9, 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $22, Button raises to $56, Hero folds.
Final Pot: $77
----------------------------
But, let's play it both ways here --
say you've been 3betted after raising OTB. Do you really have to have that narrow of a range considering we have position and it seems like there's a lot of 3betting out of the blinds? What range do you have for calling? in 200NL/400NL there's a lot more deep thinking than even one limit down.
seems like against a non thinking player, we can call more just to see a flop with sc's or a pp to try to stack 'em. Against a thinking player we have to worry about them defending their blind and if its hard to put them on a hand, I want good cards to go to battle in, and I probably will be somewhat tight on the flop (i.e. I need at least top pair or a strong draw, even if checked to I'd probably check behind).
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
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FWIW, in my book Axs is a good 3-bet in LP, but an easy fold in most blind spots, without the right read+image.
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dsaxton
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Against a random you should just fast play, because the cost of slow playing when he's a fish or has a hand is too large. If you end up "correctly" slow-playing (which is difficult to do well from the small blind anyways), the decision wasn't a whole lot better than reraising and getting a fold.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
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you can shove that flop is the A6s hand
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gabe
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Moderator
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if they always fold when you reraise kk, start reraising more hands (sounds like printing money eh)
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
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I play the A6s hand the same against a frequent LP raiser.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
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i think just doing what i normally do with most of my range from the sb is best play
+ if i smooth call i ll lead lots of flops
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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sauce123
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AJ0+ A9s+ JTs+ 88+ seems like a good place to start
and SCs and small PPs and other such stuff
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Deanglow
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Moderator
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I shove over the raise on the A6s hand most of the time.
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zook
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
I play the A6s hand the same against a frequent LP raiser except I 3bet to $20
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fmp
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Mix, why such a small 3bet? I make it $24 to go and on the flop I am almost always leading here.
To everybody saying they shove over the raise; what made hands would EVER shove here? If I were villain, Id call this shove with any pair and shit like AK just because it makes absolutely no sense.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
To everybody saying they shove over the raise; what made hands would EVER shove here? If I were villain, Id call this shove with any pair and shit like AK just because it makes absolutely no sense.
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Yah I was going to say the same thing. I don't think we'd shove QQ+ here, so a shove might not be that believable. I was thinking if we really wanted to continue here, I might call and check/bomb the turn if he bets. Depends how much FE we have.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
To everybody saying they shove over the raise; what made hands would EVER shove here? If I were villain, Id call this shove with any pair and shit like AK just because it makes absolutely no sense.
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Yah I was going to say the same thing. I don't think we'd shove QQ+ here, so a shove might not be that believable. I was thinking if we really wanted to continue here, I might call and check/bomb the turn if he bets. Depends how much FE we have. |
Right, that is a much more believable line.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
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the stacks are way too shallow to c/bomb the turn
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
the stacks are way too shallow to c/bomb the turn
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After looking at the hand, you are right, my comment was simply that shoving the flop sucks against a decent player and that, in a vacuum, a call and c/r AI on turn is more believable. Doing it in this hand is not an option though.
Again, what made hands would you shove this flop with and why?
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
Again, what made hands would you shove this flop with and why?
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If we shove the flop with A-6s, we have around 20% equity against most hands that can call a shove. So i think a fold is best against an unknown, particularly because we don't have a lot of F.E. (your right our line looks kind of suspicious and he is likely holding a pair)
But if a regular calls here with a middle pair and sees that we will use that line with A-6s, then we can value shove J-J/Q-Q on this flop (as well as stronger hands). This makes J-J/Q-Q much easier to play in this spot.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
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1. I meant to bet $18 but dragged the slider wrong quickly, I'm used to 3betting 3x their raise unless there are callers behind. Why $24? That seems excessive.
2. Does anyone else prefer a fold like Jeff does? I think I usually would fold PF there too, but I was playing around with 3 bets in the context of this post.
3. I like sauce's range for the blind 3bet: AJ0+ A9s+ JTs+ 88+
SCs and small PPs
4. The shove on the flop just seems reckless and dumb. Isn't his range narrower than mine considering he called? That means he has a strong chance of having a PP, so I think we get called too much and the shove is soooooooo bluffy
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
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1.Given that you're OOP, you want to increase the chances of taking the hand down now and make it harder for him to call. That's not just with weak hands, but with every hand. To offset the benefit he gains by being in position, you charge him more.
2.Without a read that you specifically need to be getting out of line to keep this opp in line, you don't have enough equity with a crappy suited ace OOP. The same is usually true of suited connectors. That said, with enough of a read, you can over come this.
3.I like the range posted too...sc's+small pairs are different b/c you expect to be behind his range. Of those two, small pairs are a better choice, because position is less important with them.
4.Honestly, we don't know anything about this player's range from the fact that he called. You do, from the other hands you played. Does the fact that he called a 3-bet narrow his range the way you describe? If so, then a shove is definitely bad. In general, I don't think it's that great, just because it's a hard sell, as discussed above.
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Unibomber14
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
say you've been 3betted after raising OTB. Do you really have to have that narrow of a range considering we have position and it seems like there's a lot of 3betting out of the blinds? What range do you have for calling? in 200NL/400NL there's a lot more deep thinking than even one limit down.
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If i think that you 3-bet light, I am running this line with a lot of hands that didn't hit this flop at all. I expect you to c-bet a good majority of the time, and i am rr-ing w/ trash like AT, and KJs. If you are not three betting light most of the time, I am taking this line w/ only premium hands because I know that you will probably come over me here w/ QQ+.
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"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
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Deanglow
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
4. The shove on the flop just seems reckless and dumb. Isn't his range narrower than mine considering he called? That means he has a strong chance of having a PP, so I think we get called too much and the shove is soooooooo bluffy
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It works for me more often than you might think. If you shove this flop, any player who isn't an idiot HAS to put you on a high pocket pair. A raise by your average opponent on this board is 44-88, and they can't call a push for their stack with such a hand.
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