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euphoricism
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12-20-2006, 08:01 PM
Post subject: Playing Pocket Pairs in Position
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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...playing pretty poor poker?
I think I might be overplaying my PPs in a lot of situations.
So here's my hypothetical. Youre on the button. UTG, an unimpressive ABC player raises his standard 3-4x and...
A) Theres a cold caller. You hold 77. Raise or call?
B) No cold caller, folded to you w/ 77 OTB. Raise or call?
C) Repeat A and B when you hold 88-TT
D) Repeat A and B when uou hold 22-66
What I'm trying to get at is what factors influence youre decision to coldcall or raise with mid pocketpairs. In multiway pots it would seem I'm often gotta-hit-to-win, but if its 3 way and I hold 77 I'm often holding 50% equity in a 3 way pot. That would lead me to raise. In a headsup pot, though, where I'm more likely to be 50/50, I tend to raise more in position hoping that if I miss I can use my position to either cbet and take it down or take free cards depending on the board.
I'm pretty 'meh' here. Help?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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A. call
B. call
C (a) call, reraise TT if its a pretty aggressive table
C (b) call, reraise TT if he's a pretty loose raiser (at least 15%)
D (a) call always
D (b) call or fold BUT unless he's a tight raiser, u can't just play for a set (e.g. u have to bluff raise the flop or float sometimes)
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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So youre never reraising 22-99 vs an UTG raiser?
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Robert
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Kokkedal, Denmark
Posts: 1,109
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
So youre never reraising 22-99 vs an UTG raiser?
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I'm not a big fan of reraising UTG raisers unless they have a raise a lot preflop from all positions
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Ok, switch the raiser to MP and youre in btn and repeat above excersize.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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basically, the looser/better the raiser is, the more likely you should be to either fold or threebet in position on a random basis with crap cards (including small pairs), but your default play should be to call.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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call mostly
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silu73
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12-21-2006, 06:40 AM
Post subject: Re: Playing Pocket Pairs in Position
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#8 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
.
A) Theres a cold caller. You hold 77. Raise or call?
B) No cold caller, folded to you w/ 77 OTB. Raise or call?
C) Repeat A and B when you hold 88-TT
D) Repeat A and B when uou hold 22-66
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A) I raise
B) I raise
C) I raise
D) I don't usually open-limp so I openraise/call
Am I too aggressive here or too transparent?
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aislephive
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12-21-2006, 08:00 AM
Post subject: Re: Playing Pocket Pairs in Position
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#9 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by silu_nz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
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A) Theres a cold caller. You hold 77. Raise or call?
B) No cold caller, folded to you w/ 77 OTB. Raise or call?
C) Repeat A and B when you hold 88-TT
D) Repeat A and B when uou hold 22-66
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A) I raise
B) I raise
C) I raise
D) I don't usually open-limp so I openraise/call
Am I too aggressive here or too transparent? |
I think you misread OP, he stated that there was an UTG raise by a solid player and it was then folded to you with the aforementioned hands.
But if you were serious that's really bad (reraising a solid player's utg raise with a medium-small pair) generally.
FWIW, I'd call in all of those spots. I'd still likely call if he raised from MP.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Calling is good for me mostly
If utg raiser is loose I'll 3-bet about 50% of the time
If utg is standard/tight I'll 3-bet occasionally as a "mix up" play since typically ppl won't 4-bet unless they have QQ+ so I'll at least get to see most flops + meta game blah blah...
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Fnord
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12-21-2006, 10:37 AM
Post subject: Re: Playing Pocket Pairs in Position
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#11 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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A. call
B. Sometimes re-raise, otherwise call
C & D More inclined to re-raise TT, otherwise doesn't matter much. If I re-raise then I'm not looking to showdown unless I catch a set.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
If utg raiser is loose I'll 3-bet about 50% of the time
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If he's retarded, then re-raising pre-flop is throwing away money IMHO unless you think he's not giving you action.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
If utg raiser is loose I'll 3-bet about 50% of the time
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If he's retarded, then re-raising pre-flop is throwing away money IMHO unless you think he's not giving you action. |
this is only when there's a caller be4 me (we're on the button so there's usually 8-9 BB's of dead money)
maybe you still think it's unecessary but it's pretty +ev since the caller is usually weak and the loose raiser is... well... loose.
edit : OP posited that utg is "unimpressive", not necessarily retarded. I agree that there's no need to bloat pots with mid PP's vs mentally deficient opponents.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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i call in almost all of these situations. if UTG raiser is loose, i will 3-bet with 99/TT about 50% and through in a few with lower PP's to mix it up.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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euphoricism
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12-21-2006, 06:14 PM
Post subject: Re: Playing Pocket Pairs in Position
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#15 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
C & D More inclined to re-raise TT, otherwise doesn't matter much. If I re-raise then I'm not looking to showdown unless I catch a set.
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This was kind of what I was trying to get at. If we figure UTG villains raising top 8%, his range is 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+ and pokerstove shows us as a 60% favorite against this range. If we can reraise and take the pot a large portion of the time either preflop or postflop, doesnt a reraise make the most sense? And then throw in that we'll hit a set 1:8? Either way we're still never showing down without a set.
But the problem I'm running into is that If we reraise and the flop is AQ3, what do we do? Cbet? That just nailed a huge part of his range. And if the flop is all unders, I cant know if he's got 88+ or not.
But it seems like coldcalling and folding the flop UI is soo weaaakk.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Don't you destroy your own implied odds by re-raising here? Plus he's folding the worst of his range KX/QX/AJ sometimes.
I would guess re-raising mid-pairs is better from the blinds (OOP) since it's harder to extract with a set anyway.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
Don't you destroy your own implied odds by re-raising here?
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The folding equity and wider 3-bet range more than makes up for this.
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