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dsaxton
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02-27-2006, 02:48 AM
Post subject: Playing marginal hands aggressively for fold equity.
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Here's an interesting and underused tactic.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Hero ($442.60)
BB ($1183.05)
UTG ($274.30)
MP ($537.60)
CO ($496.50)
Button ($627)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A , 3.
4 folds, Hero completes, BB raises to $12, Hero calls $8.
Flop: ($24) A , 8 , J (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $20, Hero calls $20.
Turn: ($64) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $30, BB calls $30.
River: ($124) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $80, BB folds.
Final Pot: $204
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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If I know a player will hang around but ultimately let go, I do this. That's a gutsy river bluff though. Any mid-high club calls. Then again, you can't just check here.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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I would change subject to "marginal hands with position". Out of position will get you into trouble sometimes.
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LOL OPERATIONS
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
I would change subject to "marginal hands with position". Out of position will get you into trouble sometimes.
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he is out of position
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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he's also not aggressive until the turn.
Good snag, though. I like aggression on the first couple rounds when i'm weak. Haven't tried much out-of-the-blue stuff...
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LeFou
he's also not aggressive until the turn.
Good snag, though. I like aggression on the first couple rounds when i'm weak. Haven't tried much out-of-the-blue stuff...
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Not really out of the blue. I'm representing a flush to hopefully get him to fold a better ace rather than passively try to showdown this marginal hand. I might even be betting the best hand on the turn, but I'm not sure, and I definitely don't want to get called. On the river, assuming he requires a high club to call this, it simply isn't likely that he will be able to call, so I almost always win the pot with a strong bet. My hand is basically irrelevant at this point, the bet is profitable for almost strictly mathematical reasons.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Very interesting post. Actually I think the river is the least interesting street.
What's up with the flop + turn line? I'm quite certain out opponent has gone into spray mode...
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Yeah, if you hit the flush, you donk it? If you had the flush, wouldn't you check?
I guess you are saying "I have a flush, but it's a crappy one so I cannot slow play"
or maybe "Oh, I made a bad flop call with A7 or 77 and hit my miracle turn... you wouldn't happen to be holding 2 clubs, would you?
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
Yeah, if you hit the flush, you donk it? If you had the flush, wouldn't you check?
I guess you are saying "I have a flush, but it's a crappy one so I cannot slow play"
or maybe "Oh, I made a bad flop call with A7 or 77 and hit my miracle turn... you wouldn't happen to be holding 2 clubs, would you?
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I usually bet out after hitting a flush in situations like these. The other guy will almost always check behind without a flush or similar strong hand if I check, so I bet to hopefully maximize the chances that he will put money in the pot. In this situation, if he doesn't have much of a hand, he'll fold immediately and I avoid any further marginal decisions. Even if he suspects something on the river, he has to make a decision where he can only beat a bluff, and he really has no reason to assume I am, considering this is exactly how I'd play the nut flush oftentimes. I'd check-call the flop, make a callable bet on the turn when I don't want him to check behind, and then put out a massive river bet trying to win a big pot.
And, how would calling the flop with A-7 be "bad?" If you're too afraid to make calls like this facing possible positional aggression, you're inviting people to run over you. Besides, you don't always need the best hand to win a pot, which was kind of the whole point of this post.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I usually bet out after hitting a flush in situations like these. The other guy will almost always check behind without a flush or similar strong hand if I check, so I bet to hopefully maximize the chances that he will put money in the pot.
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QFT
How often have you seen this action?
check, bet, call
check, check,
bet, fold
That being said, you have an opponent who's flipped the spew bit here. Hence I think our lines need to adjust to exploit this.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I usually bet out after hitting a flush in situations like these. The other guy will almost always check behind without a flush or similar strong hand if I check, so I bet to hopefully maximize the chances that he will put money in the pot.
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QFT
How often have you seen this action?
check, bet, call
check, check,
bet, fold
That being said, you have an opponent who's flipped the spew bit here. Hence I think our lines need to adjust to exploit this. |
Perhaps. But what if the action goes:
check, bet, call
check, bet, ???
I like to try to avoid this by taking the lead, and possibly even bluffing out the better hand.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Perhaps. But what if the action goes:
check, bet, call
check, bet, ???
I like to try to avoid this by taking the lead, and possibly even bluffing out the better hand.
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Difficult spot with deep money, the cards are almost irrelevent because neither one of you is likely to have a hand that wants to play a big pot here.
Earlier, in a post of a hand where it was me vs Luke you said you like to c/r when facing a likely c-bet. Why doesn't that same logic apply here? How likely is it that your opponent really has a hand here?
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Perhaps. But what if the action goes:
check, bet, call
check, bet, ???
I like to try to avoid this by taking the lead, and possibly even bluffing out the better hand.
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Difficult spot with deep money, the cards are almost irrelevent because neither one of you is likely to have a hand that wants to play a big pot here.
Earlier, in a post of a hand where it was me vs Luke you said you like to c/r when facing a likely c-bet. Why doesn't that same logic apply here? How likely is it that your opponent really has a hand here? |
I don't like check-raising incredibly marginal hands that can't even stand a call. In that thread, I was referring to having flopped a very strong hand against a preflop raiser who will likely make a continuation bet. I'd almost rather check-raise as a bluff than do it with this hand.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Perhaps. But what if the action goes:
check, bet, call
check, bet, ???
I like to try to avoid this by taking the lead, and possibly even bluffing out the better hand.
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Difficult spot with deep money, the cards are almost irrelevent because neither one of you is likely to have a hand that wants to play a big pot here.
Earlier, in a post of a hand where it was me vs Luke you said you like to c/r when facing a likely c-bet. Why doesn't that same logic apply here? How likely is it that your opponent really has a hand here? |
I don't like check-raising incredibly marginal hands that can't even stand a call. In that thread, I was referring to having flopped a very strong hand against a preflop raiser who will likely make a continuation bet. I'd almost rather check-raise as a bluff than do it with this hand. |
i like this thinking
air or the goods (or a marginal hand you can assume is good) Ax may very well not win at showdown here.
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