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Sir Pawnalot

07-13-2009, 11:54 AM Post subject: Playing as the maniac

#1 (permalink)

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Playing like a maniac is fun, but can be very costly.

Contrary to what some noobs are thinking, the maniac style is very challenging and requires full attention to every detail on the table. I can not play more than 1 table this way. More than anything we need to understand our villains adjustments- whether they are rational or not.

When we understand villains adjustment we can make counter adjustments. Some of villains adjustments are forced upon them by us. For example, by check/raising more frequently we force villain to either stop c-betting/leading so much, or villain starts 3 betting more lightly. Both adjustments are good, but futile if we are one step ahead.

We force villain to change his game in several ways;

1. His default play becomes EV -, and he can either lose money or adjust. Doesnt matter to us. This we can call rational adjustment. It is all about manipulating frequencies of preflop raises, preflop 3-bets/4bets, check/raises, donk bets, calling etc.

2. We make him emotionally unstable. Playing against a skilled maniac can be gruesome. It seems like you never have fold equity, but yet he folds every single time you valuebet.

When we are maestro of the action, we can manipulate the kind of changes we want. We dont want CO to open raise every time its folded to him- well, we 3-bet very light or call checkraise flop f.ex.

Since hero is the one who is deciding which changes villain must do, hero is prepared and ready to make the best counter adjustment.

I hope to generate some discussion from other maniacs out there, since I am very new to this playing style.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

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Sir Pawnalot

07-13-2009, 01:25 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Here is a hand where I made a good counter adjustment.

This was still early in the game, but already I had a very aggressive imagine. Villain was a good LAG an able to do moves.

I knew villain was adjusting because of two things; I knew he was a good player and had the ability to make rational adjustments to my play. He also gave away some timing tells here.

3 handed, 100 NL

BTN,

Raises to 3

BB
Calls 2

Flop (6,5 USD);

BB checks, raises to 12.5
Hero bets 5, calls 7.5

Turn (31.5 usd);

BB, checks
Hero bets 28

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

Sir Pawnalot

07-13-2009, 06:49 PM

#3 (permalink)

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No one has any thoughts about playing as a maniac in 6 max NL? Or at least implementing it into ones game?

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

griffey24

07-13-2009, 07:50 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Location: Toronto'ish

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What exactly are you running when you consider yourself to be playing like a maniac? 30/25 or like 45/38 or something?

As for the hand you posted, I don't think this is good. For one, villains c/r range on this flop is mostly 8x, FD's or air. If he has air he will for sure bet this particular turn again most of the time I'd imagine. If he had a FD he got there and 8x could just be checking to let you spew/pot control.

If you have a maniac image, people will be more likely to check to you and let you do the betting for them, so you also have to be aware of that.

If I decided to float flop, I'd rather check back turn and bet river if he checks again. I don't think you/re getting that many c/f's here necessarily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

Sir Pawnalot

07-13-2009, 08:25 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Totally agree that he does not check/raise an ace. He does c/r a FD and KQ, KJ, QT type of hands.

But even if his range was strong on the turn, I weighted his range heavily towards the weaker side because of timing tells and game flow.

I dont know my stats when playing maniac- and I am just starting out, but vpip is very high and lots of 3-bets.

My main idea revolves around this concept; The equity difference is very small preflop compared to post flop. Ill show an example;

Pre: 10 USD

AA vs 78s
7.5 E(?) vs 2.5 E

Turn: 50
AA vs 78s
5 E vs 45 E

Maniac preflop, rational post flop.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

Sir Pawnalot

07-14-2009, 07:29 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Have the IRC club decided to ignore me until I leave?

Cmon, I said it before that you just need to PM me and I stop posting hands in FTR.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

bjsaust

07-14-2009, 07:54 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Griffey is probably the best equipped to comment on playing as the maniac

.

I never do so couldn't comment.

Just playing to improve.

Sir Pawnalot

07-14-2009, 08:43 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Griffey did give some points.

Many people will try to trap you by check/calling you more lightly and thus we can have a wider value range, i.e stacking off easily with tptk.

I believe the key is to understand how our FE is reduced post flop, and that we therefore need to focus more on extracting value when we are in front. For, example- I stacked one person with AQ tptk who called 3 psb with A high.

People adjust differently, and thats why I think it is so difficult to play more than 1 table.

Hand in Question; If villain c/r with with KQ, KJ, KT- does he stack off on the turn??

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

07-14-2009, 11:41 AM

#9 (permalink)

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that hand is bad
the reason is that he would c/r a diamond draw and sometimes he'll tarp you when you bet that turn
and he's still calling with 8x anyway

griffey24

07-14-2009, 12:02 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Hand in Question; If villain c/r with with KQ, KJ, KT- does he stack off on the turn??

C/R Kx on this flop is the only part of his range that becomes close on the turn, cause now he has a pair.

But if he c/r anything else on the flop, like QJ, JT, 45 etc etc he will be betting this turn flush card, unless he's a complete scared nit. But given that he's c/r light on the flop (or thats your assumption for calling flop) then he's not scared and he WILL bet this turn with air. Now that he checks, he probably rarely has air and since you're a maniac you're rarely getting a c/f I'd imagine.

I'd like your float/bet more on a non diamond card actually. Just check back this turn, it's a much more credible line for most of your range that will call flop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

Sir Pawnalot

07-14-2009, 12:02 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Spot on!

But on the other hand this was a metagame spot bewteen two players with history. With my gung ho image he knew I was not having much FE on this turn and could have very few bluffs in my range here- bet is screaming that I will stack off. If he hit his draw he would likely check- thus if he is planning another bluff he cant really lead this turn. So in a way I reversed his bluffing range into my own value range (?!)

But the most important thing about this hand is that villain had adjusted his game and would probably check/raise really wide here- much more than draws and broadway cards.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

Sir Pawnalot

07-14-2009, 07:49 PM

#12 (permalink)

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I have been experimenting with maniac style for about 4 hours, which is nothing. But already I learned what I already knew- FE drops lower the longer one play maniac.

Staying in maniac gear for extended periods must be extremely difficult due to low FE. IMO the most important thing in poker is to polarize FE and E.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

Sir Pawnalot

07-23-2009, 09:03 PM

#13 (permalink)

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With a total of 8 hours play as a maniac I can at least share my experience.

I played mostly 4 NL (HU to 10handed), because I didnt want to drop 10BI at 100 and yet felt I could gain some experience to my game although competition was soft.

My "strategy"was as follows; raise pot all hands xcept 72off and 83off. Bet pot on every street with any piece of the flop. Only fold very rarily.

How did vilains adjust? Almost everybody adjusted with widening their calling ranges.

If we include some maniac style in our metagame we can gain lots of future value resulting from the loss of future Fold Equity.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

07-23-2009, 10:25 PM

#14 (permalink)

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You know, it would be better if you'd open a positionally based range like ATC OTB and 20% five spots away from the button
bet the amount on the flop you think you need to get someone to fold air
bet the amount on the turn you think you need to fold marginal hands
bet the amount on the river you think you need to fold top pair hands

Sir Pawnalot

07-23-2009, 11:02 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Hey dude, I visited another dimension the other day. It was freaky ok! All psychedelic colours and disturbing noises.

Basically, reality crumbles before your eyes in a thundering orchestra of sounds and colours.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

speedcake

07-24-2009, 12:01 AM

#16 (permalink)

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woah

your banner burned here

Sir Pawnalot

07-24-2009, 12:23 AM

#17 (permalink)

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I chickened out, and as reality came back- piece by piece, the frequencies of disturbing low pitch sounds changed into an escalating evil laughter.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

IowaSkinsFan

07-24-2009, 02:03 AM

#18 (permalink)

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IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough

Prediction: Sir Pwnalot will be a winning highstakes regular within 3 years.

Check out the new blog!!!

Parasurama

07-24-2009, 02:34 AM

#19 (permalink)

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maybe if you hadn't said that! now he's going to have ego issues that will hinder his progress

dsaxton

07-24-2009, 05:21 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Playing like a maniac is good because when it works you feel like you're really awesome at poker.

dsaxton

07-24-2009, 05:22 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Parasurama, where in D.C. are you? I'm right across the river in Arlington.

(Apologies for double post.)

Sir Pawnalot

07-24-2009, 01:52 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Playing like a maniac is good because when it works you feel like you're really awesome at poker.

And even when it doesnt work we learn a lot about the shifting of general FE and opponents skill level.

In general, once a maniac image is established, hero should stop blufffing altogether, but value bet rather wide.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

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