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euphoricism
Old 10-14-2007, 12:53 AM     Post subject: Playing against the school #1 (permalink)  
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I know this sounds like whining, but hear me out because I havent found any decent posts on this topic.

Recently moved from stars over to a site with no PT support. The players are the calling stationest of the calling stations, and they're eating me alive. You know the basic newbie complaint (OMG I NEED TO MOVE UP WHERE THEY RESPECT MY RAISES!!), well, I finally understand it.

Its not so much that *one* person is calling down light and sucking out occasionally. That would be fine. The problem is that the vast majority of the pots, even the reraised ones, are 4+ to the flop. People playing any two pre, hoping to flop hard or flop draws, and then use the "POT ODDS!" excuse to call down. In limit we called this the "schooling" effect, because the fish were basically unknowingly teaming up against you, each of them individually playing very poorly, but viewed collectively they're very bad for your hand.

The problem is then that between these 4 opponents, there are a huge amount of outs against you. Every turn card that doesnt give you the nuts is essentially a terrible card. Cbets are kinda pointless, as they have almost 0 fold equity... so on the turn you're stuck either c/folding the best hand because they're "floating you" (without knowing it) or firing second barrels into several calling stations with TP type hands.

To further aggravate the situation, the site has a bet pot button and a bet half pot button. And the fish use them almost anytime you check it to them. This is letting the fish bet properly without them even knowing they're doing it.

So what adjustments need to be made that I'm overlooking?

I've changed my standard PFR to 6x + 2x for every limper to try and get more HU pots, but it doesn't seem to matter to them, so should I go back to 4x+1 and try and control pot sizes, or continue to exploit my only real edge -- getting them to put money in preflop when I'm holding a better overall starting hand? I'm leaning toward the latter, as long as they'll regularly call 8x raises with weaker hands I should let them, right?

But beyond that, is set camping the only thing I can do? Play super TABTA poker?
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Old 10-14-2007, 01:06 AM #2 (permalink)  
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what did we do in limit?
- open up our range for more speculative hands
- isolation raises are no longer used
- instead of protecting our hand we push our equity, even if we know they have odds to call

i'd say the same applies to NL....it'll just probably be a little more high variance.

or you can just shortstack and be done with it.
 
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euphoricism
Old 10-14-2007, 01:07 AM #3 (permalink)  
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A fairly standard hand, just to exemplify my problems...

Hand #1286011423001020: Pebble Beach (6-Max) 11423
Seat 1: kingthumper (36.02 in chips)
Seat 2: Chief22 (48.65 in chips)
Seat 5: IHeartUrMom (44.77 in chips)
Seat 6: Busby (24.00 in chips)
Seat 10: cpgbse (57.60 in chips)
Busby: posts small blind $0.25
cpgbse: posts big blind $0.50
Dealt to IHeartUrMom [ T T ]
kingthumper: folds
Chief22: folds
IHeartUrMom: raises to $3 I 6x pre OTB
Busby: calls Means nothing
cpgbse: folds
*** FLOP *** [ 3c, Ah, 2h. ]
Busby: checks
IHeartUrMom: bets $5 Pointless, but what can ya do?
Busby: calls
*** TURN *** [ J. ]
Busby: checks
IHeartUrMom: checks I cant really fire another barrel into an unknown here with third pair and a larger-than-average pot can I?
*** RIVER *** [ J. ]
Busby: bets $6 insta half-pot button
IHeartUrMom: folds
Busby: returns uncalled bet $6
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Miffed22001
Old 10-14-2007, 01:09 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 VPIP 100%
PFR0%

lets pwn em baby.

Seriously though, id limp a whole range of drawing hands Axs etc JTo and stuff to make monsters and im guessing draw fairly cheaply to win big pots

what site btw?
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euphoricism
Old 10-14-2007, 01:10 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
or you can just shortstack and be done with it.
You know.... that might not be a half bad idea.
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euphoricism
Old 10-14-2007, 01:12 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
VPIP 100%
PFR0%

lets pwn em baby.

Seriously though, id limp a whole range of drawing hands Axs etc JTo and stuff to make monsters and im guessing draw fairly cheaply to win big pots

what site btw?
The thing is, with the bet-pot button, they dont underbet their hands like passive scared money fish typically do. So no, drawing hands lose value.
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Miffed22001
Old 10-14-2007, 01:13 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
VPIP 100%
PFR0%

lets pwn em baby.

Seriously though, id limp a whole range of drawing hands Axs etc JTo and stuff to make monsters and im guessing draw fairly cheaply to win big pots

what site btw?
The thing is, with the bet-pot button, they dont underbet their hands like fish typically do.
if we bet do they raise. Can we control the price i.e they call call call, but will they raise raise raise?!
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euphoricism
Old 10-14-2007, 01:18 AM #8 (permalink)  
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They typically only raise in two spots.. one the really obvious c/minraise on the flop. And the other when theyve hit two pair + they might c/r the turn all in. Their standard line is c/c, damn missed the turn c/c hit the river, shove!

Or since my standard line is to cbet, check through turn and evaluate river, its check call, check (i check behind), auto half-pot button no matter what the board is.

Of course I'm summarizing an entire site into two neat little sentences, but w/e
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euphoricism
Old 10-14-2007, 01:19 AM #9 (permalink)  
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And probably just running bad.

Short stacking sounds inviting.
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bigspenda73
Old 10-14-2007, 01:34 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 L D O

Remember Shake, maybe he can help...
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Genitruc
Old 10-14-2007, 02:01 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Genitruc is an unknown quantity at this point
 Few suggestions :

-Fold speculative stuff from EP (i.e. AJo and KQo)
-limp behind a huge amount
-don't bet vulnerable 1 pair hands in multiway pots
-play 2pr + and big draws very aggro
-raise a huge amount when folded to you in LP
-don't c-bet a whole lot
-float them, don't let them float you

Basically it's counterplay (must be a few threads about it if you do a search). I had a lot of success playing this way with a 38-22 style at fishy tables on Party which sound similiar to your playing conditions. Most of the 22% of my pfr was done from CO or Btn when folded to me.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Chopper
Old 10-14-2007, 03:11 AM #12 (permalink)  
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i like the short-stacking comment a lot here.

but, when confronted with these conditions, like i found today at AP, i often get frustrated and dont adjust quickly enough, either.

once i get adjusted though, i
-open raise my super premiums only
-limp anything that does well multi-way behind any other limpers, but stuff that can hit the nuts, not everything
-set hunt
-dont cbet oop
-c/r oop when i hit a flop
-3bet premiums to isolate
-DO A TON OF FOLDING ON THE FLOP

if that doesnt work, i switch sites/tables.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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UG
Old 10-14-2007, 06:01 AM #13 (permalink)  
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play full ring, hit sets, get paid?


 
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will641
Old 10-14-2007, 06:11 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 to me it seems that if you getting called by everyone raising 6x + 2x per limper, than you should make your range much much tighter, and 12 table.
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gabe
Old 10-14-2007, 07:27 AM #15 (permalink)  
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bet more when u have good hands, and bet less when u have shit

it cant get much easier
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Halv
Old 10-14-2007, 08:24 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 Why would you want a short stack when they are donkeys?

Flop sets, get paid. Flop one/no pair, get to showdown in a smallish pot. Don't worry about balancing, they won't notice.

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Jack Sawyer
Old 10-14-2007, 10:22 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
bet more when u have good hands, and bet less when u have shit

it cant get much easier
I concur

this is exactly how 5/10 live games play around here
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:17 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will641
to me it seems that if you getting called by everyone raising 6x + 2x per limper, than you should make your range much much tighter, and 12 table.
You can make your range tighter as will said, or you can just raise a LOT harder pre. What happens if you raise to 10x? or 12x? There must be some amount that will thin the field to HU?

I'd imagine you still wanna be isolating on one fish at a time, esp with position, so I'd just be pounding the raises hard when I raise.
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Chopper
Old 10-14-2007, 06:29 PM #19 (permalink)  
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yes, but are you really going to raise AQo to 12X, get a caller or two, and cbet the whiffed flop with half your stack?

if you do it once, are you going to do it the next time? and if you arent going to cbet it, why raise it so big in the first place?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Halv
Old 10-14-2007, 06:34 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 Because it is the best hand and getting lots of money in with the best hand rocks.

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griffey24
Old 10-14-2007, 06:37 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
yes, but are you really going to raise AQo to 12X, get a caller or two, and cbet the whiffed flop with half your stack?

if you do it once, are you going to do it the next time? and if you arent going to cbet it, why raise it so big in the first place?
ok well I agree.. it has to be a combination of making your range tighter AND raising harder to 12x with that range. I'd imagine if you narrow it to HU.. Ace high will be good reasonably often against somene running like 70/40 or something.. you'll just have to make some good reads I guess to figure out when.

But no question.. also try to get into a lot of flops cheaply with your more marginal hands in position against the fish and raise hard hard on flops that hit you.
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jackvance
Old 10-14-2007, 08:39 PM #22 (permalink)  
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 I don't think there can be a site that plays as consistently moronic as that.. they'd get bled dry too fast by half decent people.. you must've been running bad and gotten a wrong impression imho.
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
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bigspenda73
Old 10-14-2007, 08:50 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 It doesn't matter guys, euph's not going to listen. He's too stubborn and just wanted to vent.

That's my take
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daven
Old 10-15-2007, 04:31 AM #24 (permalink)  
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 where is this magic site? sounds good
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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euphoricism
Old 10-15-2007, 04:45 AM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
where is this magic site? sounds good
I'm not telling, but I'm not exaggerating. They are, indeed, just as bad as I portray them.

I've begun shortstacking with *incredible* success. Over 10 buyins, 20bb at a time. They'll call shorties with *anything*. I'm regularly being called by 33, 44, K5s, just random shit.

This has to be the closest thing on the planet to printing your own money.
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Jimmy Mac
Old 10-15-2007, 08:16 AM #26 (permalink)  
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Which site is this?
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bigspenda73
Old 10-15-2007, 09:46 AM #27 (permalink)  
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 cake
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:23 AM #28 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
cake
you ruined his fun
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Old 10-15-2007, 02:20 PM #29 (permalink)  
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meh, it doesn't take long to realize which site allows US and doesn't support PT. actually, i think there's only 1.
 
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Old 10-15-2007, 06:04 PM #30 (permalink)  
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but, has anyone else notice the same things over there? and, what did you do to compete?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Old 10-15-2007, 06:20 PM #31 (permalink)  
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 Good stuff in here. Playing at the loose 50NL tables even at stars I see this shit ALL the time.
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Old 10-15-2007, 06:47 PM #32 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by kmind
Good stuff in here. Playing at the loose 50NL tables even at stars I see this shit ALL the time.
I ghosted someone playing the 50nl games at Stars last night for like 2 hours, the game were not as easy as I remember.
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Old 10-15-2007, 06:49 PM #33 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
but, has anyone else notice the same things over there? and, what did you do to compete?
put your ego away and stop doing FPS.

be very passive with your crap hands. be very aggressive with your good hands. never bluff. don't count on them folding. it doesn't get any easier.
 
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Old 10-15-2007, 06:55 PM #34 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Good stuff in here. Playing at the loose 50NL tables even at stars I see this shit ALL the time.
I ghosted someone playing the 50nl games at Stars last night for like 2 hours, the game were not as easy as I remember.
Not too fun when they suckout on you though as you are taking your shots.
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Chopper
Old 10-15-2007, 10:20 PM #35 (permalink)  
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i think Hyper was telling me to STOP TAKING SHOTS, kmind. prolly both of us should listen a bit.

it (any donkey) pisses me off, too.....BIG TIME. it seems the second i check the river, i'm taking a nice sized bet i cant call square on the chin.

guess that means dont play these donkeys oop.

i swear they are donkeys. i see the total crap they call raises with and showdown, but cant catch the right cards against them. its frustrating, and 15/7 poker at a 6max table bores the crap out of me. i guess the other answer is to open more tables.

btw, i tried to short-stack them, and i dont know how well that will work. i dont win much more than buying in deep when i do it, and today i chunked off 3 "mini-stacks." 2 with QQ (sucked) and one with AK (against KK).

but, if the name of the game, is to make money...i guess i gots ta do what i gots ta do.

thanks for the confirm, hyper. this isnt a long-term problem, just some short-term frustration. truth be told, i'm glad i found such a gaggle of donkeys that i am bitching about the games being too loose.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:58 PM #36 (permalink)  
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hmmm, i'm not sure where i said never to take shots....while i've never taken shots myself, i don't approve or disapprove of it.
 
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Old 10-15-2007, 11:56 PM #37 (permalink)  
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 Just play 12/9 and win 8ptBB/100+ if what you suggest is actually true.

Oh and like gabe said just bet more with good hands and bet less with bad ones. This is like the first branch of the fundamental theorem of poker.
Check out the new blog!!!
 
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Old 10-15-2007, 11:56 PM #38 (permalink)  
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 Just play 12/9 and win 8ptBB/100+ if what you suggest is actually true.

Oh and like gabe said just bet more with good hands and bet less with bad ones. This is like the first branch off of the fundamental theorem of poker.
Check out the new blog!!!
 
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kmind
Old 10-16-2007, 01:01 AM #39 (permalink)  
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 Sorry if I caused confusion, but I was just venting my frustration on my personal attempts at moving up. Wasn't directed towards anyone saying anything about moving up. As simple as all this sounds, I am learning a lot. ISF's stats actually, and quite uneventful, seem pretty optimal as well as the other advice in here.
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Jack Sawyer
Old 10-16-2007, 01:38 AM #40 (permalink)  
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 It really doesn't get any easier than this folks
Straightforward pokah pwns
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Old 10-16-2007, 01:49 AM #41 (permalink)  
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 yea I found on Prima and party I need to have solid reasons to C bet. I need to see that they fold 60%+ on the flop, I also need to have something to rep on the flop. K high flops don't do it. They will fold to paired flops or an A that's it. If they call the C bet, shut down. Fold, Fold and Fold. my WSD% has dropped to 23% but my WSD% is 50%+ on most nights. Pot control is key, learn the differences between betting 1/2 pots, 2/3 pots and full pots depending on stack sizes and really, don't full out bluff, EVER! Most guys on sites like this are zeroth level, they have a medium PP and see the flop is AJJ they are thinking, "cool Two Pair" Take your time, don't wake them up and get it in slowly and steadily. Plan your streets, don't just read hands from past actions, think ahead, "how do i want this hand to end?"
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Chopper
Old 10-16-2007, 02:06 AM #42 (permalink)  
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i dont even think they go farther than, "cool. i got two pair."

their bet-sizing blows, which traps me currently, and they like to minbet/RR a lot. i hate calling minbets because i conditioned myself to bust up a raise at stars.

i'm trying to remember "how it used to be" at Sun and Party a couple years ago.

raise pf, flop TPTK, bet pot, bet pot, 1/2 pot river. if you're beat, you're beat. if you get raised, you bail. if you flop a set you treat it the same. if you flop a solid draw, you bet it the same.

i neglected cbetting because back then, i didnt do it oop...at all. and those games were easy. sure, full of suckouts, but over a month's time...easy. open 6-8 tables and cruise, baby.

should run about 17/8/1.5
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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donkbee
Old 10-16-2007, 05:09 AM #43 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
yea I found on Prima and party I need to have solid reasons to C bet. I need to see that they fold 60%+ on the flop, I also need to have something to rep on the flop. K high flops don't do it. They will fold to paired flops or an A that's it. If they call the C bet, shut down. Fold, Fold and Fold. my WSD% has dropped to 23% but my WSD% is 50%+ on most nights. Pot control is key, learn the differences between betting 1/2 pots, 2/3 pots and full pots depending on stack sizes and really, don't full out bluff, EVER! Most guys on sites like this are zeroth level, they have a medium PP and see the flop is AJJ they are thinking, "cool Two Pair" Take your time, don't wake them up and get it in slowly and steadily. Plan your streets, don't just read hands from past actions, think ahead, "how do i want this hand to end?"
Just out of curiousity, what stakes on Party did you find this?



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bigspenda73
Old 10-16-2007, 05:26 AM #44 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
yea I found on Prima and party I need to have solid reasons to C bet. I need to see that they fold 60%+ on the flop
Sorry but this is wrong padz, unless you're c-betting 125% the size of the pot. If you cbet 75% of the pot, they have to fold about 40% of the time for the bet to be profitable in a vacuum, vacuum meaning you have ZERO equity in the pot when you cbet. Add the fact that a lot of the time we will have a gross amount of equity and c-betting becomes extremely profitable.

As a rule against these players I would cbet two types of hands

1. Hands that have a lot of showdown value (TPGK+, big draws)
2. Hands that have zero showdown value (QJ on an Ace hi board)

I wouldn't cbet hands like Ace hi and underpairs/middle-pair type hands. It ends up bloating a pot when what we're really trying to do is just manipulate the size of the pot in a way that allows us to do anything with it on later streets. If we need to build a bigger pot we can, if we need to keep it smaller we can. The ability to do this stems from playing a wide range in position (CO/BTN) and a very tight-range OOP which theoretically will have a large amount of showdown value in itself.
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 10-16-2007, 01:09 PM #45 (permalink)  
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i don't think i changed my cbet frequency when i moved from stars to party. what i did do, however, was never bluff, cbet less in pot size, and double barrel next to none.
 
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