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Play a BvB hand with me

  
 
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mixchange
Old 06-02-2009, 10:59 PM     Post subject: Play a BvB hand with me #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($100)
SB ($102.40)
BB ($101.50)
UTG ($132.15)
MP ($124.85)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q
2 folds, Hero bets $3, 1 fold, BB raises to $10, Hero calls $7

Flop: ($20.50) 5, K, K (2 players)
BB bets $11, Hero calls $11

Turn: ($42.50) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $22, Hero calls $22

River: ($86.50) 7 (2 players)




Villain is around 17/13 with 7% 3bet from BB.

- What do you think of flatting? I hate 4betting vs. loose 3bettors with QQ+ because i fold their air and flip vs. AK etc
- What do you think his sizing means on flop and turn?
- Do you call a river bet?
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bode
Old 06-02-2009, 11:09 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 how many hands is your sample over? flatting IP is fine, but 4bet occasionally for balance. sizing on flop and turn is lolstandard on this type of board. i dont know if calling a river bet is right, but i would have a fairly tough time folding here if hes aggro at all.

more stats/reads are really important here i think.
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mixchange
Old 06-02-2009, 11:18 PM #3 (permalink)  
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300 hands, did not seem way out of line when we played. I didn't think he was a particularly good hand reader and that he was likely to be 3betting pre from blinds without really knowing when/why
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zook
Old 06-03-2009, 04:21 AM #4 (permalink)  
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I always 4bet/call QQ b/c an A or K flops 41% of the time and I hate it when that happens.
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Marshall28
Old 06-03-2009, 05:37 AM #5 (permalink)  
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If they are 3betting loosely, you should be 4betting a lot, and if you are 4betting a lot, you need some hands for value in that range, so I'd definitely 4bet here. If you find that you are only ever getting it in against AK, it means you aren't 4betting enough as a bluff to induce him to get it in lighter.

As played, fold to a river shove, villain would have to be suicidal to be bluffing here.
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mixchange
Old 06-03-2009, 07:56 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Ya I would also fold to a river shove.

I guess this thread is really about preflop. QQ+ is great for the 4bet value range, but lately I have siphoned some sizable pots from loose 3betting players who will fire 1-2 barrels regardless of texture with their Ax hands that missed.

Most importantly, the first time I 4bet these loose 3betters they almost always fold. I like QQ as value for our second 4bet, but I prefer bluffs for our first 4bet as a fold is higher %. Most of these high 3bettors (especially at 100 and 200nl) are NOT adjusting when they 3bet you relentlessly (e.g. starting to tighten their range with more 3bets) because most of the small stakes players are not adjusting back. So I think most of the time we're getting a fold from our first 4bet, where vs. a lot of good players who know we're good I would probably be more scared to 4bet QQ the second time ;p
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Marshall28
Old 06-04-2009, 08:12 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Don't know about all that, I play in the 200nl games on stars a lot and I don't notice what you're talking about.... Whenever I 4bet I get jammed on the first time. I get jammed on just about 3/4 the time as it is though.
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Old 06-04-2009, 09:11 AM #8 (permalink)  
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depends on his play vs. 4bs
if he is well-adjusted vs. 4bs and is very robust preflop a 4b is better because he'll jam Ax and 22+ as semi-bluffs
but most people 3b tons and don't adjust their felting ranges so they'll only shove QQ+,AK for value and won't really shove bluffs which means a 4b with trash is awesome until they figure out what you're doing

that said, his bet sizing on flop/turn means he's going for all three streets with half pot bets
whether he's trying to get you off like 88 or he has Kx/KK+ I don't know, it's a good line on dry boards
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minSim
Old 06-04-2009, 11:00 AM #9 (permalink)  
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I like 4bet pre of what zook said and it get's your 4bet range going.

As played call down imo. I agree with Iopq it seems like he's going for 3 streets half PSB with assumingly a polarized range.
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Old 06-04-2009, 12:13 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
I always 4bet/call QQ b/c an A or K flops 41% of the time and I hate it when that happens.
that's not the best reason
sometimes it's more ev+ to call and shove a safe flop

well first of all you can get looked up really light if you shove things like KQ on a T9x board
it also improves your fold equity when bluffing if you're capable of sometimes smooth calling with queens

that said, I like a 4b anyway because aggressive 3bettors figured out they have to felt a little lighter so we're sometimes getting it in vs. JJ so our 4b/call is EV+ not just from the standpoint of them folding hands that have equity against us, but also we're OK with felting because we're pretty much a flip vs. JJ+,AK (when we get the money in we're flipping, when they fold they relinquish the equity in the hand)
we also run into a 5b bluff sometimes if we put pressure on with 4bs
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