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jmrogers7
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03-01-2004, 05:20 PM
Post subject: Philosophy on going/calling all-in
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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This is just based on my 2 months of online poker but here is what i have observed in that time on the subject of going/calling all-in.
It has been my experience (both through hands that I have been involved in as well as those I've observed) that the person going all-in wins fewer of the hands than the person who subsequently calls the all-in bet. After thinking about this and observing the cards that end up being shown after the hand is over it appears that many times when a person goes all-in they are doing so with what is usually the 2nd best hand and they go all-in in hopes of taking the pot right there and then hoping not to be called. This is usually done when there has already been a good amount of money invested in the pot and the person has enough remaining in their stack to make it a difficult decision for the other to call the all-in, but they realize that they probably do not have the best hand and as an alternative to checking and then having to relinquish the power in the betting of the hand they opt for the all-in route.
Conversely, the person who ends up calling an all-in bet most likely will only do so if they feel that they have the best hand. Again, from what I've experienced and observed (and I have done both; had the best hand and went al-in as well as went all-in with what ended up being the 2nd best hand and me knowing this and trying to buy the pot) the caller for the most part will usually win that all-in hand. Not always, and I have no stats to back up the percentages of this happening, but this is what i have experienced and observed.
Any thoughts?
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Overall, you need a better hand to call an all-in bet than make one, that's just good poker (the gap concept.) Also, at a $25 NL table there are enough calling stations and wild betters around that bluffing over the top is just plain a bad idea.
Generally, I use the all-in bet when I think I have a strong but vulnerable hold on a hand or am certain I have the better hand and have been shown aggression.
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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Interesting point on bluffing over the top. What would you attribute as the reason that it seems much more difficult to bluff wins online than in person? Agreed that the low limits account for some of it as it is not that big a deal for someone to call what is generally a small amount of money to call a bluff. However, even in NL it seems very difficult to execute a successful bluff.
Much easier to bluff (in my opinion) in real life.
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Much easier to bluff (in my opinion) in real life.
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It is MUCH easier to bluff in real life. I believe the reason behind it is that people don't place "as much value" on their poker accounts.
Its the same reason casions use poker chips not cash for play with. People don't think of stack of $25 poker chips as $500 cash. But if they were holding 25 $20 bills then they would be a little more reluctant to part with them.
Just a though, do with it what you will..
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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I actually do quite well bluffing online, thank you. Although I'd love to strengthen up that part of my game.
Some random thoughts on bluffing online at low limits...
Don't bluff a player incapable of being bluffed. Identify and classify the call stations on the table. Do they call on any pair? Nothing? Top pair reguardless of kicker? Almost always call the flop, then tighten up? Heads up are they different than when in a multi-pot? IMHO, calling behavior is the single most important piece of information I can get on a player. Also, calling behavior is not strongly correlated to betting behavior. I've seen some super-aggressive players that back down really fast when bet into, and I've seen some that auto-call.
Don't oversize your bluff bet. Your bluff should look like your usual bet. In my case, I make a lot of half and half+ sized bets if I have it or I'm bluffing. I'd rather bluff twice as often for the same price. Betting more than the pot is giving away power. A caller only needs to be right 50% of the time, you have to take it down more than 50%. Also, with a smaller bet I can bluff the turn cheaper if I think I got a courtesy call.
The best time to bluff is after the flop when you think the other player missed. It's a tough to call a bluff with just 1 or 2 overs, even for call stations. The counter to it is check-raising, so be careful not to do it too often and don't call that raise! Personally, I like to bluff early and take the free card later.
If you're caught bluffing, slow down. Particularly against that player. They're more likely to call you down on a weaker hand next time, so nail them hard when they have a likely second best hand.
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I've been playing real money for several months pretty successfully. When I started, I would make a lot of mistakes calling all-in bets, thinking that I was being bluffed or having second best hand. There are only limited circumstances where it is appropriate to be all in at the PP $25NL tables: (1) you have the nuts and someone has been betting into you and you are almost certain they will call your all in (why scare them off while they are paying you). IMO you want you all-in bet to get called because you are certain or almost certain that you are best.
(2) Like Fnord said, you have a solid hand like trips but it is vulnerable to a draw and there are several callers - go all in to scare em out and protect the hand, if you are lucky, you may even get someone w/ second best hand or a chaser who misses to double you up. (3) Pre-flop: You have AA or KK and the hand you raise and the hand is re-raised and re-raised again. People think AJ and AQ are super hands on PP and will get creamed if they call your all-in. Suprisingly, I've doubled up this way several times.
The all in move should be used sparingly only when you know you are best. Poor players don't understand this and think you are trying to bully them and make poor calls. At least that is what I used to do. If you bluff, a 1/2 pot or pot size bet is a much better move because you are protecting the remainder of your stack and still getting the same effect.
The final and most difficult time to call all-in is when "it depends." You have to be at a table for a while and get a read on an opponent. If you see a maniac and have a big hand, pick him off all-in, because only a maniac will consistently call an all in.
In summary, my philosophy is avoid being all-in unless you want to get called.
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