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mixchange
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07-26-2007, 12:31 AM
Post subject: Perceived Range vs. Actual Range
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Fnord brought up a great topic in sauce's other thread about your perceived range vs. actual range. I think we assume e a "3 bet range" for any unknown we and then we modify that range based on what is shown down + frequency.
What if instead of 3betting with the perceived range, we sit down as an unknown and 3bet with a stealth range? Then we can shift when we feel opponents are catching on. What I hate is its obvious when AK hits and its a quick and easy read/fold for opponent. What this really boils down to, is how much is it worth for villain to be very confused about our range? I would think this is the most profitable possible thing, part of making adjustments to fool opponents.
I don't like 3 betting AKo much because (now a lot of this is because of my personal lack of skill with AK in 3 bet pots) it mostly turns into a short list of standard, boring, obvious scenarios like:
1) I win a small/medium pot on the flop or turn with cbets.
2) I win medium pot vs. marginal holdings, or someone calling down a pp.
3) I lose a large pot because of bluffs, getting called down or R/R, or losing to a set with 2p or tptk
4) rarely, I win a large pot with a straight or vs. AQ.
I'm not gaining a lot from the 3bet AK pots, and I feel like its bad for metagame when I get caught bluffing my 3bet pots with it.
Now, when I've just been calling with AK --
I've had people stack assuming I can't have AK for the straight, or top 2 with AK out there. I've gotten good value from Ax. Deception of our range seems like a strong weapon. Wherareas when I 3bet, half the time people think "AQ or AK" and think I'm bluffing (especially when I am unknown). There's a lot more hands that we call with than we 3bet with, and it's harder to put us on a hand when we don't 3bet a "3bet hand".
Now with a stealth 3bet range hand like J10s I feel like I get the benefits of AK by bluffing A's and K's, while actually having different cards. I've made huge pots with J10s, and won the mediums. I feel like now all of broadway is playable, partly because most people don't call 3 bets with A10 or AJ, so I don't have to worry about being outkicked as much, and lots of folds go down when the AKQ pops up. There's tons of people calling for set/showdown value of PP's, and with J and 10 I hit and they don't believe me, and with AKQ they often fold thinking I hit.
Of course I still 3bet JJ-AA as they are just shearly so strong, but what about swapping out or AK/AQ sometimes for J10s, 89s, 910S, QJs?
lunacy or ?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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A good 3-bet range has a lot of "sometimes" and "it depends" in it.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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this is a very good strategy until ppl start calling 3bets with a similarly linear range of hands that includes a lot of hands u dominate
very good thread tho and i used a lot of stealth 3betting at ssnl
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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This is more about merging/blurring ranges than perceived v actual. The harder it is for your opponent to put you on a specific hand, the more your advantage increases.
And remember this about ranges: Your range doesn't exist, if your opponent isn't good enough to put you on one.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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I remember Renton mention on 2+2 somewhere whereby not 3betting AA and just calling instead (vs regulars bcoz its wasted on unknowns) a very very small % of the time for deception/perceived range.
Of course you would have to be careful here. I have never done this at all but its just a thought and it probably loses value but if someone sees that you can do that with AA then it fucks with their head when you 3 bet/4 bet etc
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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actually ive been toying with the idea of cold calling AA to a strong TAG reg's UTG raise like 1-2% of the time and leading any flop.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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If i'm being lightly 3 betted I like calling his 3 bet with AA sometimes, but the conditions really have to be right for to want to do this i.e. he's folding to strong 4 bets almost every time but if he's not 4 bet he will take "charge" of the hand on the flop.
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this is a very good strategy until ppl start calling 3bets with a similarly linear range of hands that includes a lot of hands u dominate
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linear range of hands? you mean when they start calling with AJ, A10? If we notice, thats ok because now we just tighten up, but its a pain if only like 1 person at the table notices, then we're out of sync with either the rest of the table or that player. I suppose we can adjust depending on if that 1 or 2 players are in the pot. At least at 200nl no more than 2 players would notice something like this
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Your range doesn't exist, if your opponent isn't good enough to put you on one.
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thats a fucking yoda poker quote, but sadly true. I sometimes want our opponent to think, because then there are more ways we can exploit if they actually think but think badly....
sauce, whats in your stealth range?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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This thought made me decide to now only raise AJ+, KQ, 22+ UTG. Everything else for me is a marginal loser and no one is going to notice so I WIN
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