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NL100 another bluff catcher

  
 
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mg0698
Old 08-06-2009, 07:52 PM     Post subject: NL100 another bluff catcher #1 (permalink)  
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Villian is 24/23/5 over 93 hands. Folds to 3 bet 60% (out of 5)

3bet PF is marginal i do it once in a while

Didnt CB flop wanted o give him some room to bluff, thoughts on that?

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BB: $105.20
UTG: $181.55
Hero (CO): $100.00
BTN: $122.15
SB: $100.50

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is CO with K Q
UTG raises to $3, Hero raises to $10, 3 folds, UTG calls $7

Flop: ($21.50) T Q 3 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($21.50) J (2 players)
UTG bets $16, Hero calls $16

River: ($53.50) 6 (2 players)
UTG bets $39, Hero ??
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:13 PM #2 (permalink)  
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3bing is probably terrible because you fold worse like KJ and the most common 3b call hand is AQ, so enjoy making your hand play worse post-flop
not sure about post-flop
on one hand the hands you're giving free cards usually get it in on the flop when you bet and are generally flipping with you (AhJh, 8h9h)
on the other hand you're giving a Tx a 5 outer

ok, so turn call is mandatory because he could literally have nothing at all and seeing if you give up
river is tougher
his value range is AK (if he flats that in this situation), TT-QQ, AQ, JTs, 89s, and possibly the split
but what could he be bluffing? like T9s kind of makes sense or 99 or random hearts like A9s if he wants to call that pre

the problem with this board is that his 3b calling range has this board crushed so he has so few bluffs even possible even though it looks like your line is so weak he should be bluffing a lot
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bspahn
Old 08-06-2009, 11:27 PM #3 (permalink)  
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fold this hand pre imo. KQs i flat pre
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meeloche
Old 08-07-2009, 12:40 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 What a terrible hand to 3 bet with in this spot. Think about his calling range, you're only getting called by hands that dominate you and you're gonna be lost playing postflop on a lot of boards like this.



 
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minSim
Old 08-07-2009, 06:30 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Seems like villain is opening wide enough that you can call pre.
I don't hate your 3bet pre as much as the others though, as long as you think you have a good amount of FE preflop, can't profitably call, and feel you won't be spewing postflop when called.
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Da GOAT
Old 08-07-2009, 07:48 AM #6 (permalink)  
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3betting is the worst thing in the wrld as long as he folds to 3bets. calling is fine as is folding, basically need some reads.
id cb tho
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BigPapi
Old 08-07-2009, 07:55 AM #7 (permalink)  
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3bet pre is pretty bad, unless he's not positionally aware at all and opens 23% of hand from UTG and loves to call 3bets w KJ etc. But I doubt he does.

I kinda like 13 on flop and 23 on this turn
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Stacks
Old 08-07-2009, 08:33 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 Preflop is bad. That's been established.

As far as postflop, I think it's fine if you fold the river here. I'm a bit torn on whether we cbet flop or not, but I don't think it's bad either way.
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minSim
Old 08-07-2009, 10:04 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Not sure if it's the place to address the discussion, but everyone who judges the preflop 3bet talks about domination and postflop.

What about all the times we pick up the pot preflop or postflop once we 3bet? versus all the times we give up postflop after calling?

What about domination issues in a single raised pot, especially when we feel we should call down because our range generally looks weak when we call preflop and postflop?

What about isolating versus possibly playing a multiway pot in a bad relative position?

Is it really that hard to read we're likely possibly beat postflop and not autospew our stack to every better hand?


I definately don't want to say it's a great play, but I think people are overestimating our EV of calling with this hand in this situation.
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bspahn
Old 08-07-2009, 03:09 PM #10 (permalink)  
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that's why its easiest to fold pre and move on.
that way you're not dealing with all the stuff you said.
sure KQ is a good hand but you're better off open raising it, or 3betting it when their opening range is wide, and also doing it when you have good position on anybody else thats potentially in the pot
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griffey24
Old 08-07-2009, 03:33 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minSim
Not sure if it's the place to address the discussion, but everyone who judges the preflop 3bet talks about domination and postflop.

What about all the times we pick up the pot preflop or postflop once we 3bet? versus all the times we give up postflop after calling?

What about domination issues in a single raised pot, especially when we feel we should call down because our range generally looks weak when we call preflop and postflop?

What about isolating versus possibly playing a multiway pot in a bad relative position?

Is it really that hard to read we're likely possibly beat postflop and not autospew our stack to every better hand?


I definately don't want to say it's a great play, but I think people are overestimating our EV of calling with this hand in this situation.
If you think he's wide enough UTG that you can 3bet him and get a fold often enough to be profitable, then you might as well do it with trash hands.

3betting doesn't solve the dominated issue, all the hands that dominate us will continue. It's even worse if they are capable of calling big hands OOP, cause now you'll be dominated on the same boards, but have bloated the pot even bigger.

I wouldn't mind a 3bet here if villain was a whale or some fish, but vs a reg I'd rather a call here and 3bet a more polarized range.
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pocketfours
Old 08-07-2009, 04:10 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 I don't think pre is as horrible as everyone seems to think. KQo is a decent candidate for our 3bet trash range since it blocks the strongest hands in our opponents range. It's also one of the strongest hands we can't profitably flat. If you get to showdown you might confuse villain into thinking that your 3bet was for value.

Good flop check. Call turn, fold river.
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nutsinho
Old 08-07-2009, 06:52 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
I don't think pre is as horrible as everyone seems to think. KQo is a decent candidate for our 3bet trash range since it blocks the strongest hands in our opponents range. It's also one of the strongest hands we can't profitably flat. If you get to showdown you might confuse villain into thinking that your 3bet was for value.

Good flop check. Call turn, fold river.
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Da GOAT
Old 08-07-2009, 07:44 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Da GOAT
3betting is the worst thing in the wrld as long as he folds to 3bets. calling is fine as is folding, basically need some reads.
id cb tho
i mispelled, i meant ISNT the worst thing as others were saying
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Renton
Old 08-07-2009, 10:08 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
I don't think pre is as horrible as everyone seems to think. KQo is a decent candidate for our 3bet trash range since it blocks the strongest hands in our opponents range. It's also one of the strongest hands we can't profitably flat. If you get to showdown you might confuse villain into thinking that your 3bet was for value.
yep, pretty clear cut abcd theorem

however since this is only 5 handed hj/co I think u can flat kqo pretty comfortably vs someone this loose. 3betting is only really good if villain is one of those auto-call-all-3bets people (of which there are plenty), or if you intend to flat his 4bet and dispense pwn
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Old 08-08-2009, 12:56 AM #16 (permalink)  
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3bing is also good if he's the fold to 80% of 3bs kind of guy in which case we're 3bing all our hands but 22+,AQ+ which we're flatting for value

we can flat if bu/blinds are not squeeze happy because we're at lest splitting the blind money and possibly using position to pwn
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