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Irisheyes
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09-09-2006, 09:39 AM
Post subject: My first hand at the table...
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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No stats, no reads. Just posted my first blind.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
saw flop|saw showdown
CO ($133.60)
Button ($851.94)
SB ($200)
Hero ($200)
UTG ($312.58)
MP ($201.75)
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , Q . SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, MP calls $2, 2 folds, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $8, MP calls $8, SB folds.
Flop: ($22) 6, 7, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $16, MP calls $16.
Turn: ($54) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $40, Hero raises $174 (All-In),
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Robert
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Kokkedal, Denmark
Posts: 1,109
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Aint stacks a little to big compared to the pot for a turn c/r allin? Other than that I like it a lot and its often a standard move for me against aggro players who loves to take the pot away from me on the turn when checked to - the 3 of clubs is also the perfect card for you as it completes no draws and enables you to counterfeit 67 for twopair.
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SmackinYaUp
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
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Extremely standard play. I like it given no reads and the board.
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He who drinks beer sleeps well.
He who sleeps well cannot sin.
He who does not sin goes to Heaven.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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What hands are we trying to protect against here [not rhetorical]?
In a raised pot he could easily have a draw. Without reads we dont know how he is going to play that draw and could easily check behind taking the free card. If he has a made hand he is probably going to bet and would probably call our bet [sometimes may check behind or may fold to our bet though, but the two close to cancel each other out]. He also could be calling our bet with his draw. He could be using his position to float you here, but again without reads, we dont know.
Given this, and the stacks as Robert pointed out, why not just go Pot-Pot-Pot? We protect against draws and often get more out of them, may get more out of hands hed call a bet with but check if checked to, and make our line less awkward to get the money in.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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nh
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Remember to mock him when he tanks.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Remember to mock him when he tanks.
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lol he called with A3
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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stby, seems standard.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Does anybody who has said standard or some "witty" one liner want to explain their reasoning?
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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His range is full of draws which will check behind, so just bet the turn. Any 4,5, spade, A and maybe K and T on the river will ruin your hand.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
Does anybody who has said standard or some "witty" one liner want to explain their reasoning?
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alot of worse hands call, because he didnt raise the flop he probably has a worse hand
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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you didn't raise enough preflop
work on raising larger amounts preflop when you have a superior hand in the blinds, to try to negate your positional disadvantage. I'd make it about 12 to go.
Also considering the villain limp called in EP, I don't really like the cr all in on the turn. I think betting the turn and folding to a push is probably better.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
you didn't raise enough preflop
work on raising larger amounts preflop when you have a superior hand in the blinds, to try to negate your positional disadvantage. I'd make it about 12 to go.
Also considering the villain limp called in EP, I don't really like the cr all in on the turn. I think betting the turn and folding to a push is probably better.
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Renton are you seriously putting villain squarely on a boat/3 when you fold?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
you didn't raise enough preflop
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you think an extra $2 really makes a difference??
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
you didn't raise enough preflop
work on raising larger amounts preflop when you have a superior hand in the blinds, to try to negate your positional disadvantage. I'd make it about 12 to go.
Also considering the villain limp called in EP, I don't really like the cr all in on the turn. I think betting the turn and folding to a push is probably better.
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Renton are you seriously putting villain squarely on a boat/3 when you fold? |
i dont think villian will ever have a boat here. ever.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
you didn't raise enough preflop
work on raising larger amounts preflop when you have a superior hand in the blinds, to try to negate your positional disadvantage. I'd make it about 12 to go.
Also considering the villain limp called in EP, I don't really like the cr all in on the turn. I think betting the turn and folding to a push is probably better.
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Renton are you seriously putting villain squarely on a boat/3 when you fold? |
i dont think villian will ever have a boat here. ever. |
wtf why? Because he didn't raise the flop?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
you didn't raise enough preflop
work on raising larger amounts preflop when you have a superior hand in the blinds, to try to negate your positional disadvantage. I'd make it about 12 to go.
Also considering the villain limp called in EP, I don't really like the cr all in on the turn. I think betting the turn and folding to a push is probably better.
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Renton are you seriously putting villain squarely on a boat/3 when you fold? |
i dont think villian will ever have a boat here. ever. |
I don't see why its so absurd for him to have a boat. What, just cuz he didn't raise the flop? How many horrible players do you know that actually raise the flop when they hit a set?
Anyways, I don't NOT c/r all in on the turn because I am afraid I am beat, so much as I don't because I don't want to make hands I beat fold to a c/r all in that would just as easily call a big river value bet. It is a drawy board tho, so I suppose some rivers can fuck us up.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
Renton are you seriously putting villain squarely on a boat/3 when you fold?
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What other hand (than a bluff) is going to limp/call in EP, call a strong flop bet, and then push over a strong turn bet?
Hands that beat QQ. The only other hands are maybe a highly frustrated 67 or maybe a str8-flush draw which we aren't really in that great shape against.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
you didn't raise enough preflop
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you think an extra $2 really makes a difference?? |
Maybe, but thats not entirely the point. That extra 2-4 dollars might have elevated the stakes enough by the turn that we don't really care if we are beat or not.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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yea, villian didn't raise the flop so they dont have a boat here ever. you can use the argument 'bad players dont know what they are doing they slowplay too much anyway yada yada yada' but 99% of time if villian has a boat they are at least minraising the flop.
and as for not c/ring allin because it loses action, top pair hardly folds here and big draws call as well. too many times have i done this line with say, KQs, only to be called by the nut flush draw and lose a 200bb pot to ace high.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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gabe are you sure that the aggressive games you play aren't clouding your judgement a tad here?
I think raising the flop with a set is hardly the norm. But more importantly, don' t you think a lot of draws and such are going to take a free card when checked to on the turn? This is another reason why'd I'd probably just lead it. Remember, we have no read that this player is aggressive enough to even bet a draw or a weak pair, and considering he limped in MP in a shorthanded game, he probably isn't aggressive at all.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
gabe are you sure that the aggressive games you play aren't clouding your judgement a tad here?
I think raising the flop with a set is hardly the norm. But more importantly, don' t you think a lot of draws and such are going to take a free card when checked to on the turn? This is another reason why'd I'd probably just lead it. Remember, we have no read that this player is aggressive enough to even bet a draw or a weak pair, and considering he limped in MP in a shorthanded game, he probably isn't aggressive at all.
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there are really bad players in my games too, and they still raise sets. this is hardly ever a set here.
you don't need to convince me why a lead is good here-- i didnt say i thought c/r ing was better, just that the way he played it was fine.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you don't need to convince me why a lead is good here.
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would you call if he pushed over?
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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Renton,
A lot of your thoughts in this thread are way off. This is never a set and he will bet a lot of draws if checked to on the turn. Check raising all in here is a good play tho leading is probably slightly better.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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I am probably look at this through too much of a full ring lens.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I really think the average 200NL non regular prefers to raise the turn with sets.
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Most 200NL unknowns will happily take the free card and almost never bet their draw.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Most 200NL unknowns will happily take the free card and almost never bet their draw.
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This is prob true too.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I really think the average 200NL non regular prefers to raise the turn with sets.
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i think theres more to it than that, like flop texture..
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Renton,
A lot of your thoughts in this thread are way off. This is never a set and he will bet a lot of draws if checked to on the turn. Check raising all in here is a good play tho leading is probably slightly better.
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Aces, what do you think about potting all the way down getting AI on the river?
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SmackinYaUp
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you don't need to convince me why a lead is good here.
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would you call if he pushed over? |
Depending on the game and opponent, this is a a great place to call a push because thinking or aggressive opponents push over donkbets like these all the time - and they are usually correct to do so.
Take extra notice at people who call a PFR from OOP, check-call the cbet, then lead the turn and try to see what they showdown. Watch how they react to turn raises too. When coming from weak players, a lot of the time this donkbet is them attempting to play a draw out of position.
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He who drinks beer sleeps well.
He who sleeps well cannot sin.
He who does not sin goes to Heaven.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I am probably look at this through too much of a full ring lens.
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yea i know a while back i was giving some advice in in the other NL forum that was probably wrong because im not used to playing full ring before someone called me out on it
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