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Juked07
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06-20-2008, 05:23 AM
Post subject: My dad's KK on 944 flop
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 83
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So I was talking to my dad, who plays poker casually about a hand he played today. He played it awful IMO, but I was confused as to what to do as played.
He had KK on the BB in a 0.25/0.50 7 handed live game. About 140BB effective stacks. Folded to the button, who opens for 4BB. Villain here is essentially unknown. I asked if we had any reads on him, but my dad didn't remember anything in particular. He calls. Wtf.. Raise pre. Why the heck are you trying to slow play KK out of position against fish? Feel free to say to raise pre, because he definitely needs to do this, but please give other input on my real question too.
Flop is 944 rainbow, and my dad checks. (Seriously, I hate every street). Villain bets ~5BB into 8.5BB. My dad raises to 22BB and villain shoves.
The hand, imo, was played pretty terribly up to this point, but he wants to know what to do in this spot. I thought at first it was a call, and that he was lucky to be able to get KK in on the flop after playing so weak/passive pre. Then I thought about the opponents range.
Opening from the button when folded to is pretty much ATC. Cbetting the flop is still pretty much ATC--maybe he gives up with 27o and 83o or something, but villain cbets a really wide range here right? Certainly any two face cards, pretty much all PP, and all sorts of ugly ace rags and such are willing to cbet here. When villain shoves facing a largeish checkraise, though, I feel like his hand is very well defined. I want to put him solely on 4x, 99, and TT+. In that case, we only beat TT-QQ, which I'm not sure could play this way...and that's not enough of his range to warrant a call here. Can we throw AK into his range and make this a call? We really only lose to 4x, 99 and AA. But it seems like villain might play those hands this way much more often than the hands we beat.
It didn't seem interesting at first, but I'm becoming intrigued by how difficult it is for me to define villain's range very well--like how often he can be playing the hand this way, despite the fact that he seems to have turned his hand face up for us.
EDIT: Lol. $70, not 70BB. 140BB effective stacks. This isn't even close though?
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
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lol
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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hu grudge match vs your dad obv
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BigLRIP
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BC
Posts: 194
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Here is a serious response: this is a fist pump call for your dad. Reraising pre is probably best because these villains will call too much preflop, but this is one of the safest boards to get it in on the flop. There is no way any of these players are folding a 9 here, and if he has a 4 you have to pay it off.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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im so drunk and glad i read something funny.. but seriousllyu why doesafds]-giasrpgajerg[qaeripojgq[erwpgfa[gfaqe[gawergsar0fgsdfbvgjok bye
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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snapcall, vill does the same with every overpair and probs a 9 to.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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Ification
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 53
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Quote:
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im so drunk and glad i read something funny.. but seriousllyu why doesafds]-giasrpgajerg[qaeripojgq[erwpgfa[gfaqe[gawergsar0fgsdfbvgjok bye
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Agreed 110%! Couldn't have said it better myself.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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This is the biggest insta call ever.
Even more insta that your dad's hand is under-repped.
Even MORE insta that villain shoved in position, whereas he might flat 4x or 99 to the c/r.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Total, absolute insta-snap-call. The other guy is an unknown so his range is also kind of unknown, but so many players do this with any pocket pair, any top pair, and even just as a scrotal-swinging match with overcards. Also, yeti theorem.
Your dad may be a fish, btw. Pre-flop re-raise is easy (c'mon, they're not folding anyway - get more money in there). Flop is meh, the hand plays differently if he had just re-raised pre; but since he's slowplaying/under-repping and the c-bet is inevitable, I don't totally hate it. His pre-flop and flop play in general seems like a tricky move in a spot where he has no reason to do so, since the raiser is an unknown. Playing it straight will be more profitable in the long run, and generally I'd only throw this change-up against someone I knew was likely to attack my weakness. In this spot how does he know this hand isn't just going to get checked down or something? Don't try to pull funny stuff against unknowns who are probably just weak fish, whose most frequent mistakes will be calling you too much rather than raising or betting into you too much.
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,468
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I cannot get my monies in fast enough
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"the world def needs more bikeses"
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
hu grudge match vs your dad obv
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Solution?
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Juked07
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 83
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Haha I guess I was retarded.. since everyone agrees.
But really, people play their 9x like this? If you shove 9x here as villain there's no way you're getting called by worse... I guess that's why I couldn't imagine the 9 being in villain's range. Plus, if we all agree that a good overpair shouldn't fold here, then the 9x shove is very effectively making sure that his opponent folds all weaker hands and continues with stronger hands...
But I guess villains do all sorts of strange stuff. Thanks for waking me to my retardedness.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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villain has no reason to play 4x, 9's full so quickly
he put you to a decision now CALL HIM
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Juked07
Haha I guess I was retarded.. since everyone agrees.
But really, people play their 9x like this? If you shove 9x here as villain there's no way you're getting called by worse... I guess that's why I couldn't imagine the 9 being in villain's range. Plus, if we all agree that a good overpair shouldn't fold here, then the 9x shove is very effectively making sure that his opponent folds all weaker hands and continues with stronger hands...
But I guess villains do all sorts of strange stuff. Thanks for waking me to my retardedness.
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People shove A9 and K9 in this spot online all day long, and in my experience home game players are generally worse. So yeah, I'd think that's definitely in his range. Never ever forget that for the more aggressive bad players out there, poker is a pissing match, and every pot where they made top pair or better is an opporunity to blow chips into the pot like a hurricane.
But again I'd also refer you to the yeti theorem for another large piece of his range (whiffed overcards and other air).
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
yeti theorem
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yep. i'd expect him to have no pair like 30-40% of the time
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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