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Multiway QQ OOP

  
 
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jo
Old 02-01-2007, 04:05 PM     Post subject: Multiway QQ OOP #1 (permalink)  
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To my immediate left is a complete spewtard. I have lousy position, but he's so bad that I think it is still a profitable (although high variance) place to sit. On his left is a decent player.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($187.35)
Button ($260)
SB ($250.90)
BB ($234.55)
UTG ($116.90)
Hero ($219.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, Q.
1 fold, Hero raises to $6, CO raises to $10, Button calls $10, 2 folds,

So spewtard's minraise at this stage means nothing, beyond the fact that he probably hasn't been inadvertently dealt the score card. If it had just been heads-up I would have called, and allowed him to spew all over me for the rest of the hand, but with the decent player cold-calling I decide to try and take it down, although I try and finesse it by raising enough that decent player will realise I have a genuine hand, but not enough to scare off spewtard.


Hero raises to $30, CO folds, Button calls $20.

Flop: ($73) 4, J, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $45, Button calls $45.

Uh-oh. Spewtard folds and decent player calls. I'm having a hard time putting him on a hand. I can't believe he wouldn't have reraised preflop (particularly my 3-bet) with aa/kk, given the amount of money that was in the pot by then. Maybe T9s?

Turn: ($163) 3 (2 players)

I just want to get this hand over with now

Hero checks, Button bets $58,

Still T9s? Or JJ/88/AA/KK? Oh, screw it...

Hero raises to $144.4

Sooo...any comments would be appreciated.
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seoul_child1
Old 02-01-2007, 04:17 PM #2 (permalink)  
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i don't like it, if decent player is DECENT then u have nothing that beats him, why push?? I highly doubt this is AJ, 10/9... it appears to be JJ with all the PreFlop action hence only the smooth call PreFlop. Would he bet 10,10 on the turn when u have checked it to him??
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 02-01-2007, 04:20 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 This really looks like JJ but idk, I'm surprised at his calling of the flop and weak bet of the turn.
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nogenius
Old 02-01-2007, 05:34 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I can't see the decent player betting the turn with a hand you beat given flop and PF action. I would bet the flop stronger however.
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Miffed22001
Old 02-01-2007, 05:57 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 you beat nothing but TT and TT isnt spewing here IMO. I think you see AA/KK here a lot considering button expects you to play a lot of good hands the way you just did and spew into their aces/kings
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zenbitz
Old 02-01-2007, 06:23 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Sorry, who was the spewtard again? <grin>
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jo
Old 02-01-2007, 07:46 PM #7 (permalink)  
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So, yeah, I agree with you all. Even as I check-raised the turn I knew I was doing the wrong thing. So how would you all have played the turn? Check folded? I think this kind of hand is quite a big leak of mine
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zenbitz
Old 02-01-2007, 08:00 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I think this might be a hand where you want to *discourage* bluffs vs. TAGG. So, check/call turn is bad (although check/folding to a 1/3rd pot might be worse). check/raise is clearly the worst because his draw is (a) not that likely (b) not going to call anyway, nor will he call with like AJ.

I guess bet 1/2 pot or less (1/3?) and fold to a raise. Then same on a safe river (keeping in mind that you are not killing his odds to draw with T9 or clubs or even AK)

being OOP sucks
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Galapogos
Old 02-01-2007, 08:05 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Galapogos is just really niceGalapogos is just really niceGalapogos is just really niceGalapogos is just really niceGalapogos is just really nice
 You're afraid you're beat, so as soon as villian shows aggression you give him your whole stack?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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jo
Old 02-01-2007, 08:12 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbitz
I think this might be a hand where you want to *discourage* bluffs vs. TAGG. So, check/call turn is bad (although check/folding to a 1/3rd pot might be worse). check/raise is clearly the worst because his draw is (a) not that likely (b) not going to call anyway, nor will he call with like AJ.

I guess bet 1/2 pot or less (1/3?) and fold to a raise. Then same on a safe river (keeping in mind that you are not killing his odds to draw with T9 or clubs or even AK)

being OOP sucks
But given the size of the pot and the size of my stack (and the fact that if he has me beat he probably isn't going to raise and let me know), pretty much any reasonably-sized bet that I make commits me to my stack, no?
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jo
Old 02-01-2007, 08:14 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapogos
You're afraid you're beat, so as soon as villian shows aggression you give him your whole stack?
Yes, that is correct. I've recently been analyzing and dissecting my play, and I've identified this as a potential leak.
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Miffed22001
Old 02-01-2007, 09:07 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapogos
You're afraid you're beat, so as soon as villian shows aggression you give him your whole stack?
Yes, that is correct. I've recently been analyzing and dissecting my play, and I've identified this as a potential leak.
This is my favourite spew spot too, i check this flop with QQ and think hard about calling even a bet on the flop because villains line is so obvious in this hand.
I think its reasonable to go for a further reraise preflop if you have KK/AA here and to call with QQ seen as you are probably getting enough implied to make it happen. In these stars games QQ is good here exactly 0% of the time if button is TAGG.
Such a horrible spot that only seems to occur frequently on stars
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Genitruc
Old 02-01-2007, 09:49 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 I like your line until the flop.

The flop is a way ahead/way behind situation (since it's so unlikely he has a hand like 9 10).

A good player's most likely holdings here consist mostly of PP's. I can see how it might be AK with position but it's def an unusual line to take if he has AK.

Much more likely (after he calls your preflop 4-bet) is 99-QQ with slight possibility of AA/KK trapping.

Based on your description of your game though, I'd doubt this is AA since you claim to play pretty tight/straightforward therefore making it more likely for him to think you want to get all in preflop here (if he's an aware player he'll be aware of this).

Since the only hand you really want to protect against is AK, which will only connect with the turn about 12% of the time, I'd check this flop. The reasoning is pretty simple : if the pot gets much bigger through YOUR aggression here, you're beat vs a decent hand-reader almost 100% of the time.

If, on the other hand, you check the flop and either check-call a safe turn card or lead the turn, you've underrepped your hand and have given him the chance to bluff, thinking you're likely on a whiffed AK.

As played (after the turn bet), I think villain shows up with JJ/QQ/KK almost always.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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jackvance
Old 02-01-2007, 10:40 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 I love his turn bet.. you'll feel like a donk if you want to fold to a 1/3 pot bet but in reality it's pretty much pot committing either way. Anyway, he has to have JJ here the majority of the time no?
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zenbitz
Old 02-01-2007, 11:03 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jo
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbitz
I think this might be a hand where you want to *discourage* bluffs vs. TAGG. So, check/call turn is bad (although check/folding to a 1/3rd pot might be worse). check/raise is clearly the worst because his draw is (a) not that likely (b) not going to call anyway, nor will he call with like AJ.

I guess bet 1/2 pot or less (1/3?) and fold to a raise. Then same on a safe river (keeping in mind that you are not killing his odds to draw with T9 or clubs or even AK)

being OOP sucks
But given the size of the pot and the size of my stack (and the fact that if he has me beat he probably isn't going to raise and let me know), pretty much any reasonably-sized bet that I make commits me to my stack, no?
Basically - once he calls your flop bet, you REALLY REALLY want to show down as cheap as possible. checking twice and praying he feels the same way is not the worst option (we discovered that's c/r a/i...).

Checking the flop is probably good, although it encourages bluffs we can't call, and it's so standard to c-bet in a re-raised pot that the check is very wierd... on the other hand maybe you'll trick him into slowing down with the best hand.

I think Gen's line is best IF villian is known to be aggressive/spewy/bluffy. If he's more tricky then betting is probably better.

Anyway; assuming you bet the flop and he calls, you are now worried. There is 144 behind and 163 in the pot.

If you bet like 40 (1/4th pot!!!) on the turn what is he going to do? If he raises, I think you can fold. Bluff raising here would be very spewy in big pot like this.

He will probably just call, so pot is 240 with 100 behind.... then check/fold river.

This costs you $40 more than check/folding turn, but you get to price the river.... AND the times that you are actually winning, you win $40 more (assuming he checks behind river) AND it discourages him from betting with a worse hand (either turn or river) the turn because he has to bluff-raise you, the river because even a shove gives you 3:1.

The other danger is that he thinks AJ/TT is TEH NUTZ!

Is this really better than just check/folding turn? Probably not.
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