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bjsaust
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08-04-2009, 02:38 PM
Post subject: Monster draw sees turn 3way (200nl)
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Only fish in the hand was the button at 38/0. Havnt really mixed it up with either BB or UTG. I'd probably barrel turn if it was HU but 3way concerns me. I pick up an extra 3 outs but I'm not sure I want to either b/c or b/f however c/c seems bad too...
No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (SB) ($282.54)
CO ($226)
MP ($468.04)
BB ($308.60)
UTG ($200)
Button ($141.57)
Preflop: Hero is SB with 4 , 5
UTG bets $7, 2 folds, Button calls $7, Hero calls $6, BB calls $5
Flop: ($28) 7 , 8, A (4 players)
Hero bets $22, BB calls $22, UTG calls $22, 1 fold
Turn: ($94) 3 (3 players)
Hero ???
I have 253 behind, UTG has 171 and BB has us both covered obviously.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Weird spot. If we bet and they both call are we even that excited to see a club or a 6 on the river?
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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c/c or price yourself in with a bet of $46ish.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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I'm not sure about the flop lead yet in a 4way pot. The Ac being out there is good for us ofcourse, so that might make it a lead more.
As played I think you have to rep the 2pair to fold out better clubs and not get shoved on light. c/c is better than a small bet imo.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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$70
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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I'd bet like $72 and there are plenty of scare cards you could bluff on the river if we miss.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Leading here is prob the worst option given the reads we have.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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I would check flop because we don't really care if flop checks through and we hit our draw, I mean what a tragedy that would be
and I don't mind calling a flop bet for deception
as played I just barrel but it's a gay way to play our exact holdings in the first place?
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Bet again. Your line is insanely strong and theirs isn't.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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pros/cons of 65 vs 80 turn bet?
Imo a big bet is the way to go. We're never betting small with the made hands we represent, so I'm expecting a small bet to get shoved on light and a big bet can fold out better FD's. Oh and we can't fold to a shove anyway.
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if we bet $60 and BB shoves we can fold
if we bet like $80 we have to call
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bet 72
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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DG what information makes you not want to lead the flop?
iopq, if we check the flop and we do hit our draw, i don't see how we are happy leading the turn and getting raised. basically i think because our draws are relatively weak that even though there isn't much FE on the flop, leading works best because then the times we DO hit our draw on the turn, the pot is usually heads up and we can happily get the money in.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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i wonder if we should be 3betting preflop, considering how hard it is to get value from these really weak SC's OOP when we flop hard in a multiway pot.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
$70
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I can't imagine checking here, when betting here looks so strong.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill
DG what information makes you not want to lead the flop?
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1 - Just picture what could (would likely) happen if we actually check!!!
2 - If we lead and hit a flush, what are we stacking (both vs a reg or the fish). ie not alot, if raised we should be folding a small flush.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill
i wonder if we should be 3betting preflop, considering how hard it is to get value from these really weak SC's OOP when we flop hard in a multiway pot.
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i think 3betting would be a mistake, utg has a decent range we can stack plus button is giving us big implied odds. So then I would beleive that this factor (esp fish) more than makes up for our lack of bluff equity postflop.
3betting lest utg play correctly and often fish will still flat with a very wide range (that actual crushes us pretty bad).
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
if we bet $60 and BB shoves we can fold
if we bet like $80 we have to call
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I think there's more to consider.
Worst case scenario is that indeed BB shoves and SB folds. We're getting a little over 1:2, where if BB has only sets in his range we're a little under 1:2 to win. It's a very marginal fold indeed.
If BB ever has something worse, or UTG ever comes along, it's a sure call.
If $80 has a little more FE or makes BB or UTG shove a little less lightly I think that outweighs the marginal commitment argument.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I wonder about whether its a sure call if BB shoved and UTG called. Surely at that point I need to be more worried about a better FD? I dunno, we end up with great odds but not sure how good they are.
As it played out, I checked, BB bet $78 and UTG folded leaving me with pretty much 30% pot odds and 30% chance to hit so I called. I figured it was very unlikely that BB had a better FD when he bet there. He has the same concern I have that 3way someone will have a big made hand so would prefer to try to see a free card (if he was going to play his draw aggressively I'd expect him to raise flop instead). Analysis fine?
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Just playing to improve.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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id prefer a c/r allin on turn than c/c if you think he can fold Ax
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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being OOP i never want to play a SC against a loose fish who will have position on me.
i just fold here preflop.
in position barreling here is very good.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I really can't think of one reason not to bet again here. We're betting into two people, for the second time, which shows a lot of strength. Based on flop action it's safe to say that nobody has better than one pair, and this turn card is one of the biggest bricks we could hope for.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
id prefer a c/r allin on turn than c/c if you think he can fold Ax
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They'd have to be pretty awful to be bet/folding Ax here.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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if we're going to c/r turn might as well c/c flop and c/shove turn because it looks like we slowplayed a set on the flop
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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I think griffey is spot on. Both villains ranges aren't extremely strong here. If we're gonna c/c, betting obviously should be better against weakish ranges.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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So we think they're both weakish when they flat v's a donk and in UTGs case a caller in a 4way pot?
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Just playing to improve.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
So we think they're both weakish when they flat v's a donk and in UTGs case a caller in a 4way pot?
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Relatively weakish, in that they took the pot controllish way by not raising flop.
If their hand was good enough that they wanted to stack of it's very likely they'd raise the flop.
Knowing that, it makes sense to attack their stack now.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
So we think they're both weakish when they flat v's a donk and in UTGs case a caller in a 4way pot?
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It's possible that BB is strong here and slow played 78,777,888 on flop hoping UTG would squeeze given that he was PFR. It's also possible that BB has an OESD/clubs or Ax.
UTG probably has AJ+ for value, and possibly a lot of different draws given he has position and the price he was getting. A small percentage of time UTG will have AAA, but probably not that likely given board and flop action.
If you don't think they are weak, what strong hands can you really put them on here? Remembering I'm labeling one pair as weak here, so AK =weakish. If UTG can't fold AJ then that changes things.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Well I was worried that one had better than TP, most likely BB with UTG having a good TP hand. I guess its possible BB could have something like an OESD instead though.
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Just playing to improve.
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