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Fnord
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09-08-2006, 07:06 AM
Post subject: Mixed feelings here
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#1 (permalink)
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Second orbit
UTG seems kinda passive, medicore PokerStarish trying to play well sort.
SB is a short-buy donk
My image is TAgg, just picked up a couple pots on flop bets.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($209.25)
SB ($73.10)
Fnord ($220.95)
UTG ($320.15)
MP ($127.25)
CO ($315)
Preflop: Fnord is BB with ? ?.
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, 1 fold, SB raises to $4, Fnord calls $2, UTG calls $2, CO calls $2.
Flop: ($16) K , 5 , 8 (4 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets $10, UTG calls $10, CO folds, SB folds.
Turn: ($36) A (2 players)
Fnord checks, UTG bets $12, Fnord raises to $40
How'd I do?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
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I think 4 to the flop is too many to be leading without a K.
He might fold the turn but it's pretty volatile.
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Fnord
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So you're putting me on a pair here? OSD?
More importantly, what do you think he has?
Good play to make early in a session?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
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I think you have a K9s/77ish hand, maybe 89s. I lead the flop with KT but I don't like it with 77.
On the turn I just think you are trying to get him to fold a better K by pretending the A helped you in someway. I think he has a weak K.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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betting the turn seems better
folding/calling the turn seems better still
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seoul_child1
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC
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i think u have pp or A8??.. i really cant see u check raising the turn without that A really improving u tho.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
betting the turn seems better
folding/calling the turn seems better still
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Why?
Is this play ever a good idea without a specific read?
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
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Well you're playing it like I'd play a set, but I am an ultra-predictable $5oNL donk so I can't imagine you actually HAVE a set, especially as I doubt you'd have mixed feelings about that! If I was holding worse than A8 here I would be VERY uneasy about calling your bet.
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Warpe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Is this play ever a good idea without a specific read?
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I think you have a read here - the weaksauce turn bet. If he goes better than 1/2 pot here then I wouldn't try this.
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Fnord
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I had 55, thoughts?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
betting the turn seems better
folding/calling the turn seems better still
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Why?
Is this play ever a good idea without a specific read? |
My response was assuming you had at best a King or maybe had made a weak aces up (like A5).
If you have a set, this line is fine, because a lot of hands are calling that turn.
Assuming you have a set, I think you need to bet the flop a little harder though, You are going to have a tough time getting all in with bottom set in an unraised pot out of position, so you need to elevate the stakes pronto on the flop; I'd bet between 14 and 20 (btw I would bet the same amount if I had KQ or 67, so this shouldn't give my hand away).
Then you can check/raise the turn, but I still think leading it is better, because I don't put utg on much. If he's aggressive, I might checkraise the river.
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elipsesjeff
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
betting the turn seems better
folding/calling the turn seems better still
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Why?
Is this play ever a good idea without a specific read? |
My response was assuming you had at best a King or maybe had made a weak aces up (like A5).
If you have a set, this line is fine, because a lot of hands are calling that turn.
Assuming you have a set, I think you need to bet the flop a little harder though, You are going to have a tough time getting all in with bottom set in an unraised pot out of position, so you need to elevate the stakes pronto on the flop; I'd bet between 14 and 20 (btw I would bet the same amount if I had KQ or 67, so this shouldn't give my hand away).
Then you can check/raise the turn, but I still think leading it is better, because I don't put utg on much. If he's aggressive, I might checkraise the river. |
Is overbetting the flop with sets/other strong hands pretty common when you are trying to build the pot? I guess there is no other way but I just assumed I was S.O.L with winning a monster pot so I just value bet.
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Warpe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I had 55, thoughts?
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As played, it's a transparent set line and you squeezed an extra bet out of him that a strong turn lead might not have got if he's holding a weak K. A line I like to use here that I feel is more disguised is a weak turn lead, basically acting scared of AK, to try to get a raise out of him that I can reraise.
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elipsesjeff
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Like, how weak, like 1/4 or 1/2 pot? I've tried the half pot and hasn't had much success so far. Although, maybe they just didnt have anything.
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Fnord
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Just to add fuel to the fire, Monkey checked to, Monkey bet is pretty common in spots like this. I'd like to exploit this. On the flip side, you'll often draw weak bets like this that tip the other hand.
Still a couple thoughts I'm keeping to myself for now, but that should get the ball rolling.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
As played, it's a transparent set line.
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The first couple posters put me on very little. So either they suck, or my line isn't quite so transparent.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Is overbetting the flop with sets/other strong hands pretty common when you are trying to build the pot? I guess there is no other way but I just assumed I was S.O.L with winning a monster pot so I just value bet.
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In an unraised pot its usually ok.
I like to think of unraised pots like its still preflop. No one has defined their hand really yet (except we are pretty sure big pairs and AK are out). With an initial pot of 3 dollars, would you bet 2 or 3 dollars preflop if you had a good hand? No, you'd make at least a pot size raise (7 dollars). I think theres some value in thinking of a limped flop the same way.
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Fnord
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On the flip side I like throwing out bets with air into unraised pots. Particularly against tight post-flop players who don't like to get their hands dirty in unraised pots. I also really enjoy getting picked off in spots like that.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Just to add fuel to the fire, Monkey checked to, Monkey bet is pretty common in spots like this. I'd like to exploit this.
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This is a better line with a hand like TPTK or QQ+ (in a raised pot, of course), and when you put villain on almost nothing. I think you have his range way too crushed to risk blowing him out of the pot with a turn check raise.
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gabe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I had 55, thoughts?
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you play good
sets are the only hands i would take this exact line with ( and half the time i lead turn)...i might play AK like this postflop but i would usually reraise it preflop
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Just to add fuel to the fire, Monkey checked to, Monkey bet is pretty common in spots like this. I'd like to exploit this.
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This is a better line with a hand like TPTK or QQ+ (in a raised pot, of course), and when you put villain on almost nothing. I think you have his range way too crushed to risk blowing him out of the pot with a turn check raise. |
Here is where I disagree.
Shouldn't I run lines like this with bust/air/no-good hands balanced with my strongest hands? The thought here is that strong-but-no-good hands may contiune against my great stuff and with air I have no desire to showdown anyway.
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gabe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Shouldn't I run lines like this with bust/air/no-good hands balanced with my strongest hands? The thought here is that strong-but-no-good hands may contiune against my great stuff and with air I have no desire to showdown anyway.
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do you think shania is paying attention to your play on these tables?
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Warpe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Like, how weak, like 1/4 or 1/2 pot? I've tried the half pot and hasn't had much success so far. Although, maybe they just didnt have anything.
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I like about 1/3. Small enough to look unsure but big enough to not be completely donkish (or you could just bet 1BB ). You need to have an aggressive opponent who likes to attack weakness for it to be worth trying, otherwise you just lose value and a c/r is a better though more transparent line.
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Fnord
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Guys who limp UTG tend not to attack weak bets. They just say THANKS! and show their hand down.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Shouldn't I run lines like this with bust/air/no-good hands balanced with my strongest hands? The thought here is that strong-but-no-good hands may contiune against my great stuff and with air I have no desire to showdown anyway.
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do you think shania is paying attention to your play on these tables? |
Ahhh now we move onto the next level of thought here.
Once he bets $12, we know he's got something like Kx or 76 or worse and just wants to give me the option of checking out and save some face because $12 > $10 or less. Hence at that point my analysis was I should have slowed this down into milking mode. Instead I dared him to call, because so often in these short-handed games at the $100 and lower levels they do because they can't stand to be bluffed off their King. Quite often the line I'll see is an untrusting call of the turn c/r just to make you follow through on the river where they fold unimproved.
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seoul_child1
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Straight
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hehehe.. like i said i cant see u cr on this A unless it helped u!! it did, cuz obviously u were hoping ur opponent now had atleast the A if not 2 pair, this is definately a set line, but obviously i suck because i couldn't put u on it from the way the pre-flop action went!! that is why u are fnord and i am well.... nobody... anyways Rock On and keep counting them stacks!!!
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Warpe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Guys who limp UTG tend not to attack weak bets. They just say THANKS! and show their hand down.
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Yes, a read that your opponent is aggro postflop is essential.
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elipsesjeff
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I find that Aces kill whatever action sets are going to have, unless they have Two/Pair or better that includes an Ace. I think you got an extra bet out of him here but I doubt you can get anymore. Possibly calling the turn and 1/2 potting the river you'll induce a call for value.
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Warpe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
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Oh, like our knowledge of the player has nothing to do with that. You playing a set line probably means you don't have one most of the time.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
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Oh, like our knowledge of the player has nothing to do with that. You playing a set line probably means you don't have one most of the time. |
is that some 4th level thinking there?
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Warpe
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As I understand it, Fnord is actually a fairly solid TAG, but he mixes shit up just enough to always make you wonder. He dances with Shania a lot.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Second orbit
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seoul_child1
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Straight
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[quote="Warpe"]As I understand it, Fnord is actually a fairly solid TAG, but he mixes shit up just enough to always make you wonder. He dances with Shania a lot.
lol... uhhh who's Shania??
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Fnord
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Shania is the Ying to your Yang, the ketchup to your fries (or mayonnaise if you're Dutch), the sum being greater that the parts. Your game as a whole and poker hands as Schrodinger's Cat in proxy up until the minute he shows you one card, the Ace and leaves you wondering what the other one is when you really know it's lower than ten.
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...fpart=all&vc=1
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Just to add fuel to the fire, Monkey checked to, Monkey bet is pretty common in spots like this. I'd like to exploit this.
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This is a better line with a hand like TPTK or QQ+ (in a raised pot, of course), and when you put villain on almost nothing. I think you have his range way too crushed to risk blowing him out of the pot with a turn check raise. |
I agree. Hence I didn't include sets in the range I gave you in my first post.
Unless you have like 500 hands logged with at least 2 decent players who watch this go down, you're wasting your value.
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Rondavu
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ok
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
ok
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????
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
ok
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???? |
I think it's fine. The whole thing confuses me. I understand balancing lines and such. Is this going to give you more fold equity in later hands with air when a fold equity card pops the turn? Not really sure. I think you're too smart for your own good to be honest. Enter exhibit A. This hand you present where you lost short term value in favor of a greater meta purpose. I'm somewhat stupid, so I'm barely outthinking opponents.
I'm half kidding
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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elipsesjeff
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Yeah, I think any long term metagame at these stakes is far overrated. You just don't play with the same players enough for it to matter.
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Warpe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Yeah, I think any long term metagame at these stakes is far overrated. You just don't play with the same players enough for it to matter.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Second orbit
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I think metagame applies to a session, does it not?
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Not if the sessions are not long enough for my opponent. I'm with Jeff, I maximize immdediate value and say F metagame till I run into regulars.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Fnord
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Alright, we check the turn and because he's not very good at poker we put him on Kx based on his bet size, yet we don't know how distrustful he is , so we shift down to milking mode.
What's our line now?
Check/raise the turn to $24 and bet the river?
Check/call the turn and bet the river?
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
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I like to lead this turn half pot, and generally value bet villain to death. He's too passive to check to when a fold equity card pops the turn. Not only is he likely to check behind without it, but he checks behind with it a lot as well being a trappy playwell passive.
You have to build this pot, and at no point rely on villain to do so. I really have to think about how I milk KJ on that turn to be honest. Betting reasonably does this for you.
Not only does it keep KJ around, but if he catches aces up or even an ace, your half pot turn bet is going to look highly raiseable.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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