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Minraises or close to a minraise

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05-08-2009, 02:11 AM Post subject: Minraises or close to a minraise

#1 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

The guy is a total donk, earlier I raised from the blinds and he folded his limp

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($139.45)
Hero (BB) ($100)
UTG ($103.85)
MP ($104.30)
Button ($143.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, A

2 folds, Button calls $1, 1 fold, Hero bets $4, Button calls $3

Flop: ($8.50) 2

, J

, 10

(2 players)
Hero bets $7, Button raises to $16, Hero calls $9

Turn: ($40.50) J

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

River: ($40.50) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $18, Hero folds

Total pot: $40.50 | Rake: $2

I just can't put any hands in his range that don't beat me after his flop minraise especially since he's a donk so he's doing this with like JT or a set
would he minraise with a flush draw? I think he calls with his draws rather than minraise because minraises don't look like they have fold equity (but I fold as much to minraises as big raises unless I have a draw)
I put myself in kind of a gay spot on the river because my range looks really weak so he'd bet the same amount as a bluff and for value... even though he's a fish, I think it's instinctively understood that I don't have much in this spot, I could see a fish make this small bet for value because it looks like I have nothing or make a small value bet because he doesn't think he's going to get called anyway. But because he minraised on the flop and minraises from donks are generally strong hands (they'll never level you) I just don't think he has a draw or a bluff and even if I had him on the flop I just got owned on the turn

am I overthinking this and need to just snap call?

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zook

05-08-2009, 04:33 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

I think as played the fold is ok, but I probably can't make it. I always 3bet the flop. I don't know what I do if he shoves, depends on post-flop stats/reads I think, but probably call.

05-08-2009, 04:36 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

I think as played the fold is ok, but I probably can't make it. I always 3bet the flop. I don't know what I do if he shoves, depends on post-flop stats/reads I think, but probably call.

well, chances are, when he minraises he has us beat
but I can put just enough hands like AJ in his range on the flop to see a turn

zook

05-08-2009, 04:41 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

well, chances are, when he minraises he has us beat
but I can put just enough hands like AJ in his range on the flop to see a turn

That's not an read I can make from the info you posted.

05-08-2009, 04:52 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

well, chances are, when he minraises he has us beat
but I can put just enough hands like AJ in his range on the flop to see a turn

That's not an read I can make from the info you posted.

it's not a read
minraises are generally really strong because no one expects you to fold

I just read this post on 2p2:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...s-long-131987/
also see:
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...t=1&PHPSESSID=

bjsaust

05-08-2009, 05:11 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

I've definately seen donks minraise with a draw in spots like this. All depends on whether you can put that in his range I guess.

Heck, I've seen players raise with a T here.

From your own link:

Quote:

However, looking through the data, for the flush hands, ~40% of the min-raises were done with a flush draw (a lot of times with a pair as well) and not a made flush.

Maybe I just play against really bad players

Also in my experience, usually people who minraise with a nut-hand bet the turn really big also. This guy could have a QQ+ hand as played. I would call and make a note.

Just playing to improve.

05-08-2009, 05:56 AM

#7 (permalink)

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I know he had a non-0 PF raise so I couldn't put him on QQ+. Sorry for not specifying that. Also, a lot of his draws hit on the river.

bjsaust

05-08-2009, 06:02 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Not the most obvious one(s), ie., all his FDs. If you dont think he's likely to trap after you raised his limp early enough then yeah, discount QQ+. His line just looks like it could be:

flop: I'm strong!
turn: Shit.
river: I might be good, so I'll bet a little bit.

Just playing to improve.

05-08-2009, 06:10 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

the problem is that he's betting the river IP and he's betting half pot so it's for value and never a "I don't know where I'm at" bet since he checks his tens behind
and the turn I admit I may have misread his action, at the time I was thinking that if he has a hand like Jx he might try to slowplay it

but after discussing this, I feel like I should have just called since fish don't have rhyme or reason for wtf they do

bjsaust

05-08-2009, 06:39 AM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

I talked to a friend about this the other day. We do a lot of work with ranges/etc, but sometimes you can allow some 'stupid spaz' moves in their range that dont actually make sense but they do it anyway.

Just playing to improve.

05-08-2009, 07:48 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I think a good approximation is 5% spaz on average for everyone
lower for regs, higher for fish but never 0%

BigPapi

05-08-2009, 07:56 AM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2007

Location: Rotterdam, Holland

Posts: 437

Usually when someone raises on the flop, they'll let you know the strength of their hand on the turn.

Also all of his flush draws missed, plus he might valuebet a worse hand occasionally. I dont think its a snap call, but probably while playing figure to be good here the 1 in 3 times necessary to call

Sugar Nut

05-10-2009, 02:57 PM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: grinderschool.com

Posts: 42

You need to be good around 31% here. Without reads I'm not folding river and make a note (so I have reads next time).

I prolly vbet river myself though (smallish to give his TX hands a good price)

mixchange

05-10-2009, 10:03 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 1,665

Vs. a donk I think 3bet flop/call is Standard. This guy could have AQo, 35s, so wide and vs. a donk the top of our range. Many donks play TP like the nuts (like they see on TV) so ESPECIALLY on a draw heavy flop I could 3bet/call flop vs. donk and not be shocked to see KJ.

I am however taking a lot of faith in OP's read.
Vs a decent player I would see a turn

mixchange

05-10-2009, 10:06 PM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 1,665

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

well, chances are, when he minraises he has us beat
but I can put just enough hands like AJ in his range on the flop to see a turn

That's not an read I can make from the info you posted.

HEM did a minraise analysis and found Minraises to be very strong. Vs a lot of players I would never ever 3bet the flop here, but on a forum hanging on to others' reads if OP calls him a "total donk" I am calling him a "total donk" in my own defintiion, which would be someone who 4bets flop with KJ. Otherwise not a total donk....

More reads from you would help a lot, esp if you've seen how villain players his top tier hands or any bluffs he has shown down.

05-10-2009, 10:44 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugar Nut

I prolly vbet river myself though (smallish to give his TX hands a good price)

winrar, b/f river is a line I like

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