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Microstake donk move or legit?

  
 
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Ification
Old 06-03-2008, 07:07 PM     Post subject: Microstake donk move or legit? #1 (permalink)  
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Decided to move down to work on reads, plays, etc. Table was playing very LAGG. Seat 1 was raising ATC IP and Villain was either crazy or overvalued hands because he had gotten into a race a few hands before with 10Js. Could not decide if this was some sort of recipe mixing 1 part squeeze play with a dash of stop and go with a legit hand or just a crazy donk move with and underpair or worse. Getting better than 2/1 on a call, go for it and hope it was an attempt to buy and draw to 5 outs or is this and insta fold?

PokerStars Game #17887788237: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/06/03 - 12:32:15 (ET)
Table 'Dembowska IV' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Cruznik ($5.16 in chips)
Seat 2: MagnusPoker ($1.89 in chips)
Seat 3: ification ($6.17 in chips)
Seat 4: $_$ 666 Sir ($2.04 in chips)
Seat 5: pokerfan3999 ($5.25 in chips)
Seat 6: MSUITA ($2.96 in chips)
$_$ 666 Sir: posts small blind $0.01
pokerfan3999: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ification [Js Ah]
MSUITA: calls $0.02
Cruznik: raises $0.04 to $0.06
MagnusPoker: folds
ification: raises $0.14 to $0.20
$_$ 666 Sir: raises $0.60 to $0.80
pokerfan3999: folds
MSUITA: folds
Cruznik: folds
ification said, "hmm"
ification: calls $0.60
*** FLOP *** [Qd Kh Jd]
$_$ 666 Sir: bets $1.24 and is all-in
ification said, "fucl<er"
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BigLRIP
Old 06-03-2008, 07:26 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Folding pre is definately standard. I'm a little confused by your description of villain though. I don't think you described the villain that 4bet(?). If he's really crazy and you think he'll stack off with worse aces, shoving pre is a better line, but without that read just muck it preflop. Fold flop aswell.

I also wouldn't get in the habit of typing stuff like "hmmm" in the middle of a hand, but that might just be me.
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holdin2
Old 06-03-2008, 08:15 PM #3 (permalink)  
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holdin2
I agree with Big. If you think he's doing that with a lot of crap like 10-J then you're better off just pushing over him preflop given his stack size. But I'd probably just fold it if the read isn't solid.
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Ification
Old 06-03-2008, 08:53 PM #4 (permalink)  
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In hindsight i understand shoving the flop, i just felt like there was too much value in AJ on this particular table to fold and wanted him to make a move postflop (obviously I wanted a less scary board). Really just wanted to post this and ask for future reference to see if mathematically a call could be justified. Still trying to figure out the math part of this game. Is BPTK and a gutshot enough to call this? Or easy fold 100% of the time?
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TheScientist23
Old 06-03-2008, 09:27 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I'd definitely fold that flop. If he didn't have A-T, then he definitely had a K or Q or both with the raise pre-flop.
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lolzzz_321
Old 06-03-2008, 09:45 PM #6 (permalink)  
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call he obv has JQhh

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Ulbh
Old 02-01-2009, 12:39 AM #7 (permalink)  

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Ulbh
This is such a great example of why you need to know your opponents. I agree with the poster who said that given the percentage of the effective stack that already went in, if you think the hand is a good play, put him in preflop, and if you don't, fold it. With 1/3 of his stack in preflop, and first to speak, he has an easy push with anything. The flop and bet that actually happened are the second-best example; the best would be a total rag flop, where the best hand going in is still the best, so you're still betting you have the best two-card hand just as you were preflop.

It's similar to deciding when to play back against a continuation bet.

You paid for information by reraising (although that wasn't the primary reason for the 3-bet), and against a tight player you probably wouldn't think twice about tossing AJ to a 4-bet; but you already said you expected LAG behavior, so this is probably a good spot to out-LAG the guy.

I agree the situation on the flop isn't too good. You'd have to call 42% of the total pot when you probably have about 36% chance to win, under slightly charitable assumptions. You're probably drawing super-thin more often than he's bluffing, too. If you were going to be playing this guy a lot in the future, looking him up here might be worth something later, but that isn't too likely in μ-NL.

Oh, and .02/.04 online NLHE may not be the best testbed for developing reads. I'm a regular microlimit player, and I don't go that low even with a short bankroll precisely because there are too many ATC players, so you rarely know what's happening in a hand.

As a post-post-script, I hate AJ off. In general, I'd rather have coordinated babies or something.
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