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gacowboy
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01-12-2004, 12:32 PM
Post subject: mental leaks
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#1 (permalink)
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Thanks for the great forum...after reading the "flopturnriver" site and this forum I switched to small stakes NL hold-em. I have a good sound base of the game...I have some questions that I believe others may have also.
Scenario--playing .50/1.00 NL table online...pocket QQ...early position so raise on lower end...flop: 3 Q 9...rainbow...here is where I made my mistake....rather than bet aggressive and narrow the players I allowed the play continue to the river....Yep opponent pulled a A to go with his other two in pocket...he went all-in on raise...and yep i called...lesson learned there.
Questions: Now I tend to play timid and that is costing me of course.
1. Any reccomendations on the mental aspect of playing?
2. when faced with monster pocket pair...and flop possible giving opponent trips how do you figure odds for that?
Thanks in advance
gacowboy
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gacowboy
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01-12-2004, 12:32 PM
Post subject: mental leaks
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#2 (permalink)
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Thanks for the great forum...after reading the "flopturnriver" site and this forum I switched to small stakes NL hold-em. I have a good sound base of the game...I have some questions that I believe others may have also.
Scenario--playing .50/1.00 NL table online...pocket QQ...early position so raise on lower end...flop: 3 Q 9...rainbow...here is where I made my mistake....rather than bet aggressive and narrow the players I allowed the play continue to the river....Yep opponent pulled a A to go with his other two in pocket...he went all-in on raise...and yep i called...lesson learned there.
Questions: Now I tend to play timid and that is costing me of course.
1. Any reccomendations on the mental aspect of playing?
2. when faced with monster pocket pair...and flop possible giving opponent trips how do you figure odds for that?
Thanks in advance
gacowboy
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gacowboy
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01-12-2004, 12:32 PM
Post subject: mental leaks
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#3 (permalink)
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Thanks for the great forum...after reading the "flopturnriver" site and this forum I switched to small stakes NL hold-em. I have a good sound base of the game...I have some questions that I believe others may have also.
Scenario--playing .50/1.00 NL table online...pocket QQ...early position so raise on lower end...flop: 3 Q 9...rainbow...here is where I made my mistake....rather than bet aggressive and narrow the players I allowed the play continue to the river....Yep opponent pulled a A to go with his other two in pocket...he went all-in on raise...and yep i called...lesson learned there.
Questions: Now I tend to play timid and that is costing me of course.
1. Any reccomendations on the mental aspect of playing?
2. when faced with monster pocket pair...and flop possible giving opponent trips how do you figure odds for that?
Thanks in advance
gacowboy
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gacowboy
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01-12-2004, 12:32 PM
Post subject: mental leaks
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#4 (permalink)
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Thanks for the great forum...after reading the "flopturnriver" site and this forum I switched to small stakes NL hold-em. I have a good sound base of the game...I have some questions that I believe others may have also.
Scenario--playing .50/1.00 NL table online...pocket QQ...early position so raise on lower end...flop: 3 Q 9...rainbow...here is where I made my mistake....rather than bet aggressive and narrow the players I allowed the play continue to the river....Yep opponent pulled a A to go with his other two in pocket...he went all-in on raise...and yep i called...lesson learned there.
Questions: Now I tend to play timid and that is costing me of course.
1. Any reccomendations on the mental aspect of playing?
2. when faced with monster pocket pair...and flop possible giving opponent trips how do you figure odds for that?
Thanks in advance
gacowboy
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gacowboy
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01-12-2004, 12:32 PM
Post subject: mental leaks
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#5 (permalink)
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Thanks for the great forum...after reading the "flopturnriver" site and this forum I switched to small stakes NL hold-em. I have a good sound base of the game...I have some questions that I believe others may have also.
Scenario--playing .50/1.00 NL table online...pocket QQ...early position so raise on lower end...flop: 3 Q 9...rainbow...here is where I made my mistake....rather than bet aggressive and narrow the players I allowed the play continue to the river....Yep opponent pulled a A to go with his other two in pocket...he went all-in on raise...and yep i called...lesson learned there.
Questions: Now I tend to play timid and that is costing me of course.
1. Any reccomendations on the mental aspect of playing?
2. when faced with monster pocket pair...and flop possible giving opponent trips how do you figure odds for that?
Thanks in advance
gacowboy
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gacowboy
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01-12-2004, 12:32 PM
Post subject: mental leaks
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#6 (permalink)
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Thanks for the great forum...after reading the "flopturnriver" site and this forum I switched to small stakes NL hold-em. I have a good sound base of the game...I have some questions that I believe others may have also.
Scenario--playing .50/1.00 NL table online...pocket QQ...early position so raise on lower end...flop: 3 Q 9...rainbow...here is where I made my mistake....rather than bet aggressive and narrow the players I allowed the play continue to the river....Yep opponent pulled a A to go with his other two in pocket...he went all-in on raise...and yep i called...lesson learned there.
Questions: Now I tend to play timid and that is costing me of course.
1. Any reccomendations on the mental aspect of playing?
2. when faced with monster pocket pair...and flop possible giving opponent trips how do you figure odds for that?
Thanks in advance
gacowboy
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Posts: 1,782
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gacowboy, Your hand showed why slow playing can be dangerous. I know play went on until the river but did the board ace come on the turn or the river? If it came on the river were there 2 cards of the same suit on the turn(if I have a set I like to bet people out once the board has 2 cards of the same suit)? When your opponent went all in on the river were there 3 suited cards on board at that point? How big was the pot when you had the set on the flop? turn? river? You may not have been incorrect in slow playing the hand but in general it is a risky thing to do.
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
Issue 2 is complex, hopefully we'll put up more documentation to address odds after the flop.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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gacowboy, Your hand showed why slow playing can be dangerous. I know play went on until the river but did the board ace come on the turn or the river? If it came on the river were there 2 cards of the same suit on the turn(if I have a set I like to bet people out once the board has 2 cards of the same suit)? When your opponent went all in on the river were there 3 suited cards on board at that point? How big was the pot when you had the set on the flop? turn? river? You may not have been incorrect in slow playing the hand but in general it is a risky thing to do.
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
Issue 2 is complex, hopefully we'll put up more documentation to address odds after the flop.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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gacowboy, Your hand showed why slow playing can be dangerous. I know play went on until the river but did the board ace come on the turn or the river? If it came on the river were there 2 cards of the same suit on the turn(if I have a set I like to bet people out once the board has 2 cards of the same suit)? When your opponent went all in on the river were there 3 suited cards on board at that point? How big was the pot when you had the set on the flop? turn? river? You may not have been incorrect in slow playing the hand but in general it is a risky thing to do.
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
Issue 2 is complex, hopefully we'll put up more documentation to address odds after the flop.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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gacowboy, Your hand showed why slow playing can be dangerous. I know play went on until the river but did the board ace come on the turn or the river? If it came on the river were there 2 cards of the same suit on the turn(if I have a set I like to bet people out once the board has 2 cards of the same suit)? When your opponent went all in on the river were there 3 suited cards on board at that point? How big was the pot when you had the set on the flop? turn? river? You may not have been incorrect in slow playing the hand but in general it is a risky thing to do.
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
Issue 2 is complex, hopefully we'll put up more documentation to address odds after the flop.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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gacowboy, Your hand showed why slow playing can be dangerous. I know play went on until the river but did the board ace come on the turn or the river? If it came on the river were there 2 cards of the same suit on the turn(if I have a set I like to bet people out once the board has 2 cards of the same suit)? When your opponent went all in on the river were there 3 suited cards on board at that point? How big was the pot when you had the set on the flop? turn? river? You may not have been incorrect in slow playing the hand but in general it is a risky thing to do.
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
Issue 2 is complex, hopefully we'll put up more documentation to address odds after the flop.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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gacowboy, Your hand showed why slow playing can be dangerous. I know play went on until the river but did the board ace come on the turn or the river? If it came on the river were there 2 cards of the same suit on the turn(if I have a set I like to bet people out once the board has 2 cards of the same suit)? When your opponent went all in on the river were there 3 suited cards on board at that point? How big was the pot when you had the set on the flop? turn? river? You may not have been incorrect in slow playing the hand but in general it is a risky thing to do.
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
Issue 2 is complex, hopefully we'll put up more documentation to address odds after the flop.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Eric
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
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I believe that advice is targeted to limit, where a raise is almost never a large % of the pot before you raised it, hence a lower raising standard is optimal. If you have a strong hand, why not call strong bets (~50% of the pot or more) to the river?
Slow play is a tough call and always a risk. Got to consider how likely 1 more card is to sink you vs the potentially higher payout and the ablity to bail when you're beat.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Eric
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
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I believe that advice is targeted to limit, where a raise is almost never a large % of the pot before you raised it, hence a lower raising standard is optimal. If you have a strong hand, why not call strong bets (~50% of the pot or more) to the river?
Slow play is a tough call and always a risk. Got to consider how likely 1 more card is to sink you vs the potentially higher payout and the ablity to bail when you're beat.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Eric
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
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I believe that advice is targeted to limit, where a raise is almost never a large % of the pot before you raised it, hence a lower raising standard is optimal. If you have a strong hand, why not call strong bets (~50% of the pot or more) to the river?
Slow play is a tough call and always a risk. Got to consider how likely 1 more card is to sink you vs the potentially higher payout and the ablity to bail when you're beat.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Eric
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
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I believe that advice is targeted to limit, where a raise is almost never a large % of the pot before you raised it, hence a lower raising standard is optimal. If you have a strong hand, why not call strong bets (~50% of the pot or more) to the river?
Slow play is a tough call and always a risk. Got to consider how likely 1 more card is to sink you vs the potentially higher payout and the ablity to bail when you're beat.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Eric
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
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I believe that advice is targeted to limit, where a raise is almost never a large % of the pot before you raised it, hence a lower raising standard is optimal. If you have a strong hand, why not call strong bets (~50% of the pot or more) to the river?
Slow play is a tough call and always a risk. Got to consider how likely 1 more card is to sink you vs the potentially higher payout and the ablity to bail when you're beat.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Eric
I recommend the Sklansky books for dealing with issue 1. He explains why you cannot be timid or passive. A common theme in his books is that it is often better to raise or even fold than to call.
|
I believe that advice is targeted to limit, where a raise is almost never a large % of the pot before you raised it, hence a lower raising standard is optimal. If you have a strong hand, why not call strong bets (~50% of the pot or more) to the river?
Slow play is a tough call and always a risk. Got to consider how likely 1 more card is to sink you vs the potentially higher payout and the ablity to bail when you're beat.
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thanks for replies...the board was a rainbow nothing connected...and A fell on river...still I know i could have at least made opponent think $$$ if I had raised aggressively...thanks
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thanks for replies...the board was a rainbow nothing connected...and A fell on river...still I know i could have at least made opponent think $$$ if I had raised aggressively...thanks
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thanks for replies...the board was a rainbow nothing connected...and A fell on river...still I know i could have at least made opponent think $$$ if I had raised aggressively...thanks
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thanks for replies...the board was a rainbow nothing connected...and A fell on river...still I know i could have at least made opponent think $$$ if I had raised aggressively...thanks
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thanks for replies...the board was a rainbow nothing connected...and A fell on river...still I know i could have at least made opponent think $$$ if I had raised aggressively...thanks
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thanks for replies...the board was a rainbow nothing connected...and A fell on river...still I know i could have at least made opponent think $$$ if I had raised aggressively...thanks
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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Actually Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players has quite a bit of material on no limit holdem. Even though you're not in a tournament on the $25 NL table on PartyPoker, much of the no limit info in the book is helpful.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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Actually Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players has quite a bit of material on no limit holdem. Even though you're not in a tournament on the $25 NL table on PartyPoker, much of the no limit info in the book is helpful.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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Actually Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players has quite a bit of material on no limit holdem. Even though you're not in a tournament on the $25 NL table on PartyPoker, much of the no limit info in the book is helpful.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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Actually Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players has quite a bit of material on no limit holdem. Even though you're not in a tournament on the $25 NL table on PartyPoker, much of the no limit info in the book is helpful.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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Actually Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players has quite a bit of material on no limit holdem. Even though you're not in a tournament on the $25 NL table on PartyPoker, much of the no limit info in the book is helpful.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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Actually Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players has quite a bit of material on no limit holdem. Even though you're not in a tournament on the $25 NL table on PartyPoker, much of the no limit info in the book is helpful.
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ttanaka
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,184
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gacowboy,
Before the flop, the odds were about 81% to 19% favoring the pocket AA's, so going in you were a huge underdog.
Now, hitting the Q on the flop, this basically gave only two outs to your opponent. At this point, you become a 92% favorite to win the hand. With these kinds of odds, I can't say that slow-playing your hand was a bad move. Clearly, you are a favorite to win this hand at this point. A check (with the hopes of your opponent betting into you) or small bet to build the pot would not be a bad play. However, if you put your opponent on KK or AA, he would have called almost any bet, so you could have pumped up the pot some.
After the turn card, which was a blank, you become a 96% favorite to win the hand. But at some point, you want to take your opponents money, you only have two more rounds of betting left. If you wait until the river, you give your opponent a chance to see all the cards. If he hasn't hit anything, it becomes that much easier for him to fold, as opposed to calling a bet now with the hopes of hitting the right card on the river. I would have made a large bet at this point with the hopes that the weaker play on the flop would entice a call.
And then the river came and busted you... well that's poker right?
As mentioned in earlier posts, slow-playing is very dangerous. I'm not sure it would have mattered in this case, because the opponent with AA is very likely to have called you all the way down. The strength of your hand, in my opinion, justifies one round of slow play.
Good luck.
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ttanaka
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,184
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gacowboy,
Before the flop, the odds were about 81% to 19% favoring the pocket AA's, so going in you were a huge underdog.
Now, hitting the Q on the flop, this basically gave only two outs to your opponent. At this point, you become a 92% favorite to win the hand. With these kinds of odds, I can't say that slow-playing your hand was a bad move. Clearly, you are a favorite to win this hand at this point. A check (with the hopes of your opponent betting into you) or small bet to build the pot would not be a bad play. However, if you put your opponent on KK or AA, he would have called almost any bet, so you could have pumped up the pot some.
After the turn card, which was a blank, you become a 96% favorite to win the hand. But at some point, you want to take your opponents money, you only have two more rounds of betting left. If you wait until the river, you give your opponent a chance to see all the cards. If he hasn't hit anything, it becomes that much easier for him to fold, as opposed to calling a bet now with the hopes of hitting the right card on the river. I would have made a large bet at this point with the hopes that the weaker play on the flop would entice a call.
And then the river came and busted you... well that's poker right?
As mentioned in earlier posts, slow-playing is very dangerous. I'm not sure it would have mattered in this case, because the opponent with AA is very likely to have called you all the way down. The strength of your hand, in my opinion, justifies one round of slow play.
Good luck.
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ttanaka
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,184
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gacowboy,
Before the flop, the odds were about 81% to 19% favoring the pocket AA's, so going in you were a huge underdog.
Now, hitting the Q on the flop, this basically gave only two outs to your opponent. At this point, you become a 92% favorite to win the hand. With these kinds of odds, I can't say that slow-playing your hand was a bad move. Clearly, you are a favorite to win this hand at this point. A check (with the hopes of your opponent betting into you) or small bet to build the pot would not be a bad play. However, if you put your opponent on KK or AA, he would have called almost any bet, so you could have pumped up the pot some.
After the turn card, which was a blank, you become a 96% favorite to win the hand. But at some point, you want to take your opponents money, you only have two more rounds of betting left. If you wait until the river, you give your opponent a chance to see all the cards. If he hasn't hit anything, it becomes that much easier for him to fold, as opposed to calling a bet now with the hopes of hitting the right card on the river. I would have made a large bet at this point with the hopes that the weaker play on the flop would entice a call.
And then the river came and busted you... well that's poker right?
As mentioned in earlier posts, slow-playing is very dangerous. I'm not sure it would have mattered in this case, because the opponent with AA is very likely to have called you all the way down. The strength of your hand, in my opinion, justifies one round of slow play.
Good luck.
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ttanaka
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,184
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gacowboy,
Before the flop, the odds were about 81% to 19% favoring the pocket AA's, so going in you were a huge underdog.
Now, hitting the Q on the flop, this basically gave only two outs to your opponent. At this point, you become a 92% favorite to win the hand. With these kinds of odds, I can't say that slow-playing your hand was a bad move. Clearly, you are a favorite to win this hand at this point. A check (with the hopes of your opponent betting into you) or small bet to build the pot would not be a bad play. However, if you put your opponent on KK or AA, he would have called almost any bet, so you could have pumped up the pot some.
After the turn card, which was a blank, you become a 96% favorite to win the hand. But at some point, you want to take your opponents money, you only have two more rounds of betting left. If you wait until the river, you give your opponent a chance to see all the cards. If he hasn't hit anything, it becomes that much easier for him to fold, as opposed to calling a bet now with the hopes of hitting the right card on the river. I would have made a large bet at this point with the hopes that the weaker play on the flop would entice a call.
And then the river came and busted you... well that's poker right?
As mentioned in earlier posts, slow-playing is very dangerous. I'm not sure it would have mattered in this case, because the opponent with AA is very likely to have called you all the way down. The strength of your hand, in my opinion, justifies one round of slow play.
Good luck.
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ttanaka
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,184
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gacowboy,
Before the flop, the odds were about 81% to 19% favoring the pocket AA's, so going in you were a huge underdog.
Now, hitting the Q on the flop, this basically gave only two outs to your opponent. At this point, you become a 92% favorite to win the hand. With these kinds of odds, I can't say that slow-playing your hand was a bad move. Clearly, you are a favorite to win this hand at this point. A check (with the hopes of your opponent betting into you) or small bet to build the pot would not be a bad play. However, if you put your opponent on KK or AA, he would have called almost any bet, so you could have pumped up the pot some.
After the turn card, which was a blank, you become a 96% favorite to win the hand. But at some point, you want to take your opponents money, you only have two more rounds of betting left. If you wait until the river, you give your opponent a chance to see all the cards. If he hasn't hit anything, it becomes that much easier for him to fold, as opposed to calling a bet now with the hopes of hitting the right card on the river. I would have made a large bet at this point with the hopes that the weaker play on the flop would entice a call.
And then the river came and busted you... well that's poker right?
As mentioned in earlier posts, slow-playing is very dangerous. I'm not sure it would have mattered in this case, because the opponent with AA is very likely to have called you all the way down. The strength of your hand, in my opinion, justifies one round of slow play.
Good luck.
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ttanaka
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,184
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gacowboy,
Before the flop, the odds were about 81% to 19% favoring the pocket AA's, so going in you were a huge underdog.
Now, hitting the Q on the flop, this basically gave only two outs to your opponent. At this point, you become a 92% favorite to win the hand. With these kinds of odds, I can't say that slow-playing your hand was a bad move. Clearly, you are a favorite to win this hand at this point. A check (with the hopes of your opponent betting into you) or small bet to build the pot would not be a bad play. However, if you put your opponent on KK or AA, he would have called almost any bet, so you could have pumped up the pot some.
After the turn card, which was a blank, you become a 96% favorite to win the hand. But at some point, you want to take your opponents money, you only have two more rounds of betting left. If you wait until the river, you give your opponent a chance to see all the cards. If he hasn't hit anything, it becomes that much easier for him to fold, as opposed to calling a bet now with the hopes of hitting the right card on the river. I would have made a large bet at this point with the hopes that the weaker play on the flop would entice a call.
And then the river came and busted you... well that's poker right?
As mentioned in earlier posts, slow-playing is very dangerous. I'm not sure it would have mattered in this case, because the opponent with AA is very likely to have called you all the way down. The strength of your hand, in my opinion, justifies one round of slow play.
Good luck.
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Thanks for the input...after looking at the hand history I actually think I played well except for the point of making that large bet when I should have...like you say that's poker, and learning some lessons the hard way! Also thanks for the lead on the books...great forum,
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Thanks for the input...after looking at the hand history I actually think I played well except for the point of making that large bet when I should have...like you say that's poker, and learning some lessons the hard way! Also thanks for the lead on the books...great forum,
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Thanks for the input...after looking at the hand history I actually think I played well except for the point of making that large bet when I should have...like you say that's poker, and learning some lessons the hard way! Also thanks for the lead on the books...great forum,
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Thanks for the input...after looking at the hand history I actually think I played well except for the point of making that large bet when I should have...like you say that's poker, and learning some lessons the hard way! Also thanks for the lead on the books...great forum,
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Thanks for the input...after looking at the hand history I actually think I played well except for the point of making that large bet when I should have...like you say that's poker, and learning some lessons the hard way! Also thanks for the lead on the books...great forum,
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Thanks for the input...after looking at the hand history I actually think I played well except for the point of making that large bet when I should have...like you say that's poker, and learning some lessons the hard way! Also thanks for the lead on the books...great forum,
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