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XTR1000
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01-29-2009, 07:45 AM
Post subject: Made hands vs a drawing range
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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I want some more opinions on this. It´s the BBs first hand at the table. The replies I got so far ranged from "fold 2 flop raise" over "3betting flop seems not good" to "yea take the flip on flop". There are arguments for each line, but I like folding the least. Board is super wet, we´re BvB and its just so exploitable (probably doesnt matter at these stakes vs unknowns, does it?). B/3b/c is most tags std line here I guess, figuring that we´re flipping more or less, but that´s pretty much the best line we could take from his perspective. In hindsight and thanks to bj I feel like calling the raise and reevaluating turn is my best option, letting me get off the train on suited turns or 8/K or getting it in with way better equity.
$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
4 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
CO ($108.55)
BTN ($25.15)
Hero (SB) ($54.76)
BB ($50.00)
Pre-flop: ($0.75, 4 players) Hero is SB  
2 folds, Hero raises to $2, BB calls $1.50
Flop:    ($4, 2 players)
Hero bets $3.25, BB raises to $10, Hero raises to $20.75, BB raises to $48, Hero calls $27.25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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i prob fold flop tbh vs unknown. if im playing ill call his flop raise. this flop just hits his non3bet-calling pre range a ton.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Okay, this whole situation confuses te shit out of me any I´ve been thinking about it all night.
Quote:
re: 3betting wet flops w/ made hands
Im not sold yet on any option in the AQ hand being way superior to others, this hand was on my mind all night.
I think it was ISF who said, the only thing that changes during a poker hand is equity. Along with his definition of "draws" (equity stable across ranges, changing per street) and "made hands" (equity changing across ranges, more or less stable over streets) I feel like raising flops with made hands vs a range thats containing lots of draws is not the most magnificient play.
Most of us have learned or figured out two or three years ago, that we want to "charge" draws and deny them correct pot odds. But.
The games nowadays are more aggro than what Harrington was assuming. The 100NL ABC reg will try to get in with a lot of his 40%+ draws. So if we´d b/3b each time we´re only pushing a tiny edge vs him. however, if we took a more passive line on the flop and see a turn, we could get away from our hand on bad turns (requires some reads on the villian, otherwise we´ll get floated on to death?) and have the opportunity to still get the money in with his equity roughly cut in half.
Example here: No other reads on the villian other than shortstacks suck by default. Just assume for the sake of the argument, his donking range are mostly FD´s, 67 and some Qx´s
$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
4 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
CO ($48.68)
Hero (BTN) ($77.96)
SB ($23.93)
BB ($64.46)
Pre-flop: ($0.75, 4 players) Hero is BTN
CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.25, SB calls $2, 1 fold, CO folds
Flop:    ($5.50, 2 players)
SB bets $5.50, Hero calls $5.50
Turn:  ($16.50, 2 players)
SB bets $16.18, Hero calls $16.18
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Does that make any sense?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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hand in op is terrrrrrible just fold to the first raise instantly
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Well you're not going to call the flop, so its either do what you did or fold to the first raise. It just depends how much you like variance, because i'm not as convinced as nutsinho that doing what you did at 50NL isn't the correct play. Folding is clearly not going to miss out on too much EV though.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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this flop hits his made hands and combos.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Calling and removing equity from his range is much easier in the 2nd example because you are IP facing a donk bet. It also allows worse to keep firing and controls pot size.
In 1st example you are OOP facing a raise with TPTK. Probably one of the toughest spots in poker without a good read. I think folding is the right play here almost always despite the fact that I am not disciplined enough to do it consistently yet. I liken this situation to calling for a split. I think you are flipping too often to make up for the times you are way behind. A rough stove shows us 60/40 underdog by my (admittedly tight) range on villain.
I usually get it all in on the flop but occasionally I call & b/f blank turns while c/f draw completing turns. I know that last line is so passive it make me want to roop every time I use it but I'm just not disciplined enough to give up on my TPTK hand vs a drawing range even when I may very well be behind.
Position is a bitch when you don't have it.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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max construct a range you are getting it in against then. most of the "big draws" you begin to think of are actually made hands or hands that are at least 50/50 with our hand. he has many many made hands that beat you and not very many semibluffs at all, the few of which there are are not big dogs against you. He also is probably never pure bluffing or raising a worse made hand. I would also fold to the flop raise very comfortably with Q9.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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noble007
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
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Call flop raise and lead safe turns 2/3 pot & check fold if any draws hit.
(If you have at least 25% equity vs his flop raising range which you should have in this case.)
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Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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I think at worst he has 30+% equity vs you. With that, if you have a read he stacks off w/TP then it's ok. Unknown is a fold.
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