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kmind
Old 09-24-2007, 08:25 PM     Post subject: Lost at 50nl #1 (permalink)  
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 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($39.45)
SB ($66.45)
BB ($52.45)
UTG ($13.20)
Hero ($50)
CO ($41.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, Q.
UTG raises to $13.2, Hero calls $13.20, 1 fold, Button calls $13.20, 2 folds.

Flop: ($40.35) 7, J, 9 (3 players)

Hero?

No reads, not even sure what to do preflop.
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daven
Old 09-24-2007, 08:55 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 no reads and someone (even a shortstack) open-pushing from under the gun... here's where it's nice to be holding 27o... QQ, I fold or push. If I'm contesting this pot I want to be heads up and don't want any low pairs joining the party behind me with decent odds to do so. As played and with a late position caller, any flop without a queen is horrible. Push the flop, ideal situation is button holds AJ. Checking this flop is weak, and you'll almost certainly have to make a difficult decision facing a pot-sized raise from the button if you do so. Better to leave difficult decisions to someone else.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
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Silly String
Old 09-24-2007, 09:16 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Preflop I push over shorty, mcshort pusher.
As played, now it is time to get it all in. If the button is stupid enough to call 26BB pre-flop without a pair(read AK), then he is dumb enough to call your push. If he has AA at this point, then good for him.
And Daven, anyone who set hunts by putting 26BB in preflop I want him at my table. His odds are never that good.
kmind, your hand like a hand good enough to call a shorty's push, but not good enough to get all in. I think you may be under-repped here. That may play into your favor if you push and BU has AK or TT.
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bigspenda73
Old 09-24-2007, 09:24 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Shove PF, you force someone to show up with KK/AA behind you and even if they do, meh, you're only 100bb deep, you're allowed to stack off with QQ.

As played I don't see much wrong with checking, I don't see what value shoving has now as I can't imagine you being called with worse.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 09-24-2007, 11:03 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 shove pf. As played idk i just bet/call prob.
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Genitruc
Old 09-24-2007, 11:18 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 i d push preflop and as played push the flop. button's overcall is kind of funny but it s hard to flop sets and he can make a fishy call with 88 or TT and it's unlikely he has AA or KK so shipdamonies
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Ash256
Old 09-25-2007, 12:11 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
As played I don't see much wrong with checking, I don't see what value shoving has now as I can't imagine you being called with worse.
I disagree here, button's obviously a fucktard and we don't want to give him free cards. Are we planning on c/fing any T,J,K,A?
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kmind
Old 09-25-2007, 02:20 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 PF is horrible now that I have time to think about it. Should be a shove IMO (thanks for knocking sense into me everyone)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
As played I don't see much wrong with checking, I don't see what value shoving has now as I can't imagine you being called with worse.
This is why I am so lost postflop. What hands do most people think actually call a shove with that I beat? AJ, TT and AK maybe but I think AJ doesn't call here pre, TT sees J on board + possibility of someone having QQ, and AK has ace high right now. I guess AJ and TT are most likely?
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bode
Old 09-25-2007, 04:23 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 push over shorties that do dumb shit like this all day. as played bet the flop hard.
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bigspenda73
Old 09-25-2007, 04:33 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
As played I don't see much wrong with checking, I don't see what value shoving has now as I can't imagine you being called with worse.
I disagree here, button's obviously a fucktard and we don't want to give him free cards. Are we planning on c/fing any T,J,K,A?

we're wa/wb on this flop, I generally don't bet too much when I'm WA/WB. Just me personally. it's pretty obvious we're never getting called by worse and ppl tend to play very passive in HU pots.
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Alexos
Old 09-25-2007, 04:42 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 Wait, why does everyone want to push preflop? This isnt a donkament.

I think pf is fine, if we push we only get called by KK+, AK mayyyybe). In this case the button will obviously call us only with better hands.

If we flat call who knows wtf he can overcall with. Then you get a flop like this where you can bet/call and feel good about it, even though when we're called mostly be behind, but you protect against AK, AQ, and can still get value from TT,AJ.

I think calling is def +ev than shoving.
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kmind
Old 09-25-2007, 05:18 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
I think pf is fine, if we push we only get called by KK+, AK mayyyybe
Ugh. This was my thought process during the hand. I was actually hoping for certain I was thinking poorly.
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sauce123
Old 09-25-2007, 05:29 AM #13 (permalink)  
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dude u dont have to shove preflop thats not true at all (tho it often might be the right play)

but given u didnt shove preflop u definitely gotta shove flop fast
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snowbird4life
Old 09-25-2007, 11:09 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Raise pre. As played, shove the flop.
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Chopper
Old 09-25-2007, 01:34 PM #15 (permalink)  
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i dont push pre here...only because i dont expect anyone else to call a $13 bet preflop w/ <JJ and anything >JJ should RR. i flat call the shorty. button is an idiot if he has KK+ for not shoving over...so, i rule that out.

now its time to see if he flopped his set with his middle/small pp. odds are he didnt.

i shove the flop w/o an A or K...i think this is a good flop for how we played the hand pre. and wouldnt be surpised to see we picked up an extra $13 for our efforts. but, also, wouldnt be surpised to see we lost our stack to a set. oh well.
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djzcko
Old 09-25-2007, 01:46 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Shove. You are way ahead of UTG (he has AT, AJ or AQ I bet) and Button has a small/medium pair. If he hit his set on the flop then so be it. Get it allin...
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Silly String
Old 09-25-2007, 02:18 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
it's pretty obvious we're never getting called by worse and ppl tend to play very passive in HU pots.
I see AK call here often enough to make this +EV. Plus I'm betting to defend my vulnerable holding, not necessarily for value.
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jackvance
Old 09-25-2007, 06:36 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 I wouldn't shove over it preflop either.. uncomfortable situation really now that someone called behind. You're still behind AA/KK, and JJ or 99 just got lucky too. Still I'd probably just shove the flop.
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euphoricism
Old 09-25-2007, 06:42 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
I wouldn't shove over it preflop either.. uncomfortable situation really now that someone called behind. You're still behind AA/KK, and JJ or 99 just got lucky too. Still I'd probably just shove the flop.
To paraphrase you...
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bigspenda73
Old 09-25-2007, 07:25 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly String
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
it's pretty obvious we're never getting called by worse and ppl tend to play very passive in HU pots.
I see AK call here often enough to make this +EV. Plus I'm betting to defend my vulnerable holding, not necessarily for value.
Pokerstove the BTN's range and tell me if the flop is worth shoving.

BTW, I fully beleive AA/KK can be in BTN's range, albeit discounted. His true range is this: AK, 88-QQ (QQ discounted obv) KK/AA (discounted obv).
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Silly String
Old 09-25-2007, 09:39 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Survey says:

Board: Jd 9s 7c
I only used AA to discount AA/KK by half.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.654% 56.65% 00.00% 22435 0.00 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 43.346% 43.35% 00.00% 17165 0.00 { AA, JJ-88, AKs, AKo }

My estimate of his range would include 55-77, and another crap hand like A3s thrown in.
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 63.066% 63.07% 00.00% 36837 0.00 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 36.934% 36.93% 00.00% 21573 0.00 { AA, JJ-55, AKs, A3s, AKo }


. . . and yes, I still open push. There are about 6-8 cards I don't want to see and I am not giving anyone 2 streets to hit them.
Oh well, this hand would be so much more profitable to play with reads anyway.
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Alexos
Old 09-25-2007, 11:10 PM #22 (permalink)  
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 Why are we discounting AA/KK?

Why are we giving button such a wide range?
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bigspenda73
Old 09-25-2007, 11:18 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 yea I agree, the more I look at it it's TT+, AK
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Chopper
Old 09-26-2007, 03:17 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
Why are we discounting AA/KK?
imo, because most lower stakes players RR them every time (they read a book after all). therefore, since no RR, not a lot of a chance KK+ is out there.

sure, it would be smart to smooth call with AA here and let Hero push the flop. but, that may be giving too much credit to most 50NL players.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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Alexos
Old 09-26-2007, 05:18 AM #25 (permalink)  
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 Oh, I thought people liked to slowplay at those limits.

Idk...TT+. AK seems fine, it doesnt matter rly the advice remains the same.

So did he have JJ or AA?
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kmind
Old 09-26-2007, 05:39 AM #26 (permalink)  
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 I bet flop - villain calls, I push blank turn - villain calls and flips over 99 FTW. Shorty had an unimproved AKo.
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Genitruc
Old 09-26-2007, 05:48 AM #27 (permalink)  
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 just accept that villain outplayed you preflop
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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