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Jager

06-18-2007, 01:10 AM Post subject: Looking for answers to this problem

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 754

I am a losing player on the weekends!!!

Since May 14:

Monday-Thursday(the toughest days)
Tables during the week are usually 4-5 regs and 1-2 unkowns(usually bad)

Hands: 84,828
Net: +$9614.3

Saturday & Sunday(the softer days)
Tables during the weekend are usually 1-2 regs and 4-5 unkowns(usually bad)

Hands: 40,033
Net: -$3693.65

I haven't played on Friday during this stretch.

I have played nearly 1/3 of my hands on the weekend and I can't seem to beat the 'unkowns'. I play a very standard Tag game against them, but I consistently lose. I feel that this is a major leak, and I have no idea how to fix it.

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jackvance

06-18-2007, 01:14 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 2,910

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How do you play exactly?

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

Jager

06-18-2007, 01:20 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 754

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

How do you play exactly?

Kinda broad question, isn't it?

jackvance

06-18-2007, 01:24 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Posts: 2,910

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jager

Kinda broad question, isn't it?

Well to be fair, so is the OP..

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

|~|ypermegachi

06-18-2007, 01:38 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

do some filters on types of hands....pairs, SCs, etc. and compare the winrates between both samples.

in both samples, look for people who've won/lost most money to/from you. find out how that happened.

basically, compare both samples side by side and see if there's a difference somewhere.

gabe

06-18-2007, 01:45 AM

#6 (permalink)

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sample size zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Genitruc

06-18-2007, 06:32 AM

#7 (permalink)

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holy shit man u play lots

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

noble007

06-18-2007, 07:07 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: London

Posts: 531

My Answer would be

1. It's could be psychological
I've seen you make a post like this a couple of months back & your subconcious mind now believes you are a loser at weekend games, & this could continue to manifest itself in your play, despite the reality that if you are good enough to beat the regulars consistently at your level then the fishier players will be even easier to beat. Therefore - Change that belief.

2. Be even more patient with weaker players.
This may not be true (even stupid) but I think if you take your big hands
ie. The net amount you won with two pair and up hands divided by the total times you had these hands you should come out with a dollar amount per hand?
I would suspect that this dollar amount per hand is higher on the weekends than in the week... (ie. the weaker players pay you off more on your big hands.)
If this is the case it proves you do do better against the weaker players and you could be overplaying your marginal hands (The leak?) when it would be even easier just to sit back & be more patient?

It might also be true that if you take the net amount for your 1 pair and high card hands that you lose more per hand on the weekend than in the week?
This could re-iterate the fact that you may be overplaying your marginal hands against them, ('outhinking them?') & need to be more patient and focused, maybe dropping a table is a way to help with this as well.

(I just made all that up but it sounded good in my head.)

Galapogos

06-18-2007, 07:16 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Could it be that the weekend players are much looser and worse than the weekday guys and you aren't adjusting your starting hands accordingly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

Jager

06-18-2007, 09:55 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

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Posts: 754

Alright. I know this example isn't the largest sample size, however this trend occurs in all 511,000 hands this year.
I also did a comparison as noble suggested.

During the Week (win %)
1 pair hands: ~44%
2 pair hands: ~60%
3 of a kind: ~74%

On the Weekend
1 pair hands: ~41%
2 pair hands: ~57%
3 of a kind: ~64%

This would seem to indicate the opposite of what you suggested.

I currently play around a 24/19/3 game. As Galapogos suggested would it be more beneficial to play a 16/13 type game?? I played around with this at 50nl last night for 2k hands on the loosest tables I could find. I think it may work I ended up 16/13/3 with a WTSD 18% and a W$SD of 58% and lost $38...

"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."

noble007

06-18-2007, 11:39 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Location: London

Posts: 531

Yeah dude,

That seems to be the opposite of what I suggested
- so much for that theory...

(Though it could be natural for the win % to dip with more players seeing flop and sticking around to make catches etc. but the dollar amount per hand ie. 3 of a kind 100 times, net 1000 = 10dollars per hand
would I imagine still be higher than during the week? )

jackvance

06-18-2007, 11:52 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Seems normal.. more bad players means more people to the flop and more sticking around so winrates will be a tad lower.

Btw I wouldn't necessarily try to adjust preflop, but rather postflop. Be less tricky, play draws passively (wait to see if they hit), bluff less. Don't be too bothered trying to put them on hands (which is futile vs loose cannons with massive ranges who can play any two when they feel like it) but rather discern their hand strength from their betting pattern. I really wouldn't tighten up preflop, playing more pots with bad players = good.

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

Jager

06-19-2007, 12:53 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 754

Noble: It is still lower, I am losing more hands.

Jack: Doesn't that seem like the opposite of what is true? I mean shouldn't your winrate increase as the games get softer? Think pre legislation.

"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."

jackvance

06-19-2007, 02:08 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jager

Jack: Doesn't that seem like the opposite of what is true? I mean shouldn't your winrate increase as the games get softer? Think pre legislation.

I mean the winrates of 1p/2p type hands. With more people to the flop there's a bigger chance they back into something that beats you. Or maybe I misunderstood and that wasn't what you were trying to show?

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

noble007

06-19-2007, 01:16 PM

#15 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: London

Posts: 531

Ok well if it is true that you do in fact have a problem playing with weaker looser players then you could try dropping even lower to 10Nl, and playing a 45 minute session there over a few tables.
This should obviously highlight that the weaker the player the easier they are to beat, (you should figure out pretty quickly how to annihilate them!!!) & it should become very apparent at a basic level what the major flaws in their game are and how to exploit them.
(Obviously the weaker players at 10Nl are infinitely worse than the weak players at your level but I'm pretty sure there are some similarities post flop as well between a 30/9/1.5 at both levels.)

euphoricism

06-19-2007, 01:25 PM

#16 (permalink)

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It means you aren't giving the unknowns credit for hands where you would normally give a regular credit, probably without much reason not to.

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biondino

06-19-2007, 02:31 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Jager, I am the same. Once players won't fold to my strength, I try too hard, upping my raises, slipping in check raises and river raises which have the effect of bloating my TPGK etc. pots unnecessarily. It seems to work better if I actually tighten up a lot, keeping my eye out for opportunities to enter pots with proven bad players, and doing some positional limping if the table is loose passive. But it's hard to change mentality when the overriding feeling is "I'm better than these fuckers"

Galapogos

06-19-2007, 03:46 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

I really wouldn't tighten up preflop, playing more pots with bad players = good.

I should have been more specific. I tighten up my raising range. For example, I won't raise SCs on the button anymore unless it's folded to me, but I will gladly limp in with a lot of shit in position if it's cheap. I only raise premium hands because it's so hard to play against people who's playing tendancies are so random and illogical. Hands that are more likely to hit a flop bigger are much easier to play against them post-flop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

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