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Galapogos
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05-07-2009, 10:43 PM
Post subject: lol snap call?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Is this really that standard? Villain is a reg who I've never really seen get too out of line. When I call the flop he has to put me on a good ace. So shouldn't the river card look to improve my range which has to consist largely of AK in his eyes? I mean yeah I scored two pair but what am I hoping he has here?
Yes I'm running bad lately...
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($284.60)
CO ($171.00)
BTN ($355.65)
SB ($198.00)
BB ($149.00)
Pre-flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is UTG  
Hero bets $7, 2 folds, SB calls $6, 1 fold
Flop:    ($16, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $11, SB bets $40, Hero calls $29
Turn:  ($96, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks
River:  ($96, 2 players)
SB goes all-in $151
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,468
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He's repping such a tight range, and even then, if he had a set wouldnt he think your going to valuebet the river after pot controlling the turn?
Ugh his line makes no sense I call and take a note.
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"the world def needs more bikeses"
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Him not betting turn and then overshoving river makes no sense with a set which is pretty much what he wants you to think he has. Lol when he turns up with KK I guess.
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Just playing to improve.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Bet the turn and snap call to a shove. As played I call cause as others said it doesn't make much sense. It looks like you have some sort of weak pair and he wants you to fold it.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by meeloche
Bet the turn and snap call to a shove. As played I call cause as others said it doesn't make much sense. It looks like you have some sort of weak pair and he wants you to fold it.
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If I bet the turn I have to call a shove. Am I really getting that much vale from anything on this super dry board vs all the times I have to call when crushed?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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everytime i see this line its a whiffed turn c/r with a set
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Do many people really try to c/r two streets on dry boards with a set?
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Just playing to improve.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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I've never seen anybody do that with a set as far as I can remember. I'm betting the turn cause he can have AQ and AJ and he can also jam or station turned equity. Plus that way I can size it so I can shove the river.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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i had someone whiff a c/r on turn and c/r river tonight but there was a FD on the flop. i guess that makes a big enough difference.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Looks like a set/bluff to me. River line is weird for a bluff.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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I think u gotta fold here. Sucks abit tho, his worst cr vbing hand on flop is AQ.if he doesn't 3bet AK pre here then it's an easier call. I highly doubt AJ cr this flop.
Checkin turn is std imo. River seems like he wants a fold but imo his shove is a fairli decent move since your worst Ax hand is AJ.if he wudnt 3bet AK pre or cr AQ ,which I think is reasonable then your AK =AJ in this spot. so your range is going to call him off a fair amount when he takes this line.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Fun hand, but probably close enough to be inconsequential in the long run.
I think he was pot controlling the turn and that K helped him. If he is a decent TAG he probably does not 3bet AK or QQ+ versus an UTG raise at 100bb deep. He probably does not CR the flop with KK to "see where he's at".
Yet, a wise man once told me don't call hoping for a split.
Bottomline, I need a better read to push me one way or another. How good of a reg is he? Do you know his PTR winrate? Was the BB a fish that he wants in the pot? Does he understand any of these concepts?
Screw it, I fold. If he's really good, we're owned. If he's bad enough to double CR we're owned. I fold until I see that he'll stick his stack in light or bluff a lot.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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lol fold flop?
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Interesting. OOP I would be much more likely to consider a fold as the hand plays much harder, but until his river shove I think Gala took the right line. You make an interesting point though, what is CRing for value here b/c he certainly isn't bad enough to bluff an A high flop vs an UTG Tag?
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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I should start c/ring more flops
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
I should start c/ring more flops |
Too bad OP called his stack off so your point is moot.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
I should start c/ring more flops vs nutsinho at 100/200 |
fyp 
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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im analyzing the hand based on the stakes being played, among other factors. im pretty aware that if we fold here it is "exploitable" by someone who c/r a large percentage of flops to almost 1/4 the effective stack size. unfortunately for OP he is miles behind villains range given the reads he has provided.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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While I agree with Nuts, iopq's comment sure seemed merely sarcastic to me.
I digress and I think Nuts brings up a good point that unbalancing our plays based on reads is far better than making a bad play in the name of balancing our lines. The lower the stakes the less the need for balancing our lines in order to exploit non-thinking nits & tags.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Sugar Nut
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: grinderschool.com
Posts: 42
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That is a very very weird spot on the river. I usually b/c turn though.
What sort of reg is he? If he's the straightforward kind then I migth find a fold on the river as played. Especially if I have seen him taking potcontrol showdownbound lines with TP kinda hands. Because then he's more likely to expect you to be taking similar lines.
The K doesn't change your relative handstrength at all, it's pretty much WA/WB from the flop on forward.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,074
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I've been watching the thread from beginning just learning. I'm hopelessly lost on this hand. "Reg who's never gotten out of line" obviously means more to nuts than it does to me, and I'd be interested to know more about the "fold flop" read nuts is making here.
I probably play exactly like Hero, and hate my river fold. So, nuts, I'd be interested to know if you really find a fold on this flop and what types of villains/boards you think make it correct.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
I've been watching the thread from beginning just learning. I'm hopelessly lost on this hand. "Reg who's never gotten out of line" obviously means more to nuts than it does to me, and I'd be interested to know more about the "fold flop" read nuts is making here.
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I mean, folding here all comes down to assumptions.
From villain's perspective, we're opening UTG so our range is mostly pairs/strongish pairs and strong aces (AJ+ mostly).
-villain might assume that we're checking back a good amount of our strong pairs here (TT-KK) possibly, so now our betting range is mostly just AJ+ for value
-our UTG range doesn't have that much pure air, and we have no semibluffs
-Big assumption is that most players at this level will not be c/r AQ/AJ themselves here, in which case we beat none of his value raising range. He has no semi bluffs on this board, and he hasn't gotten out of line and prob doesnt have a pure bluff.
-in summary: he thinks we have AJ+, he doesn't think we can fold AJ+, he doesn't have worse for value, or a semi bluff, yada yada folddd
(folding here is clearly easier said after, than done in practice...)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,074
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
I've been watching the thread from beginning just learning. I'm hopelessly lost on this hand. "Reg who's never gotten out of line" obviously means more to nuts than it does to me, and I'd be interested to know more about the "fold flop" read nuts is making here.
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I mean, folding here all comes down to assumptions.
From villain's perspective, we're opening UTG so our range is mostly pairs/strongish pairs and strong aces (AJ+ mostly).
-villain might assume that we're checking back a good amount of our strong pairs here (TT-KK) possibly, so now our betting range is mostly just AJ+ for value
-our UTG range doesn't have that much pure air, and we have no semibluffs
-Big assumption is that most players at this level will not be c/r AQ/AJ themselves here, in which case we beat none of his value raising range. He has no semi bluffs on this board, and he hasn't gotten out of line and prob doesnt have a pure bluff.
-in summary: he thinks we have AJ+, he doesn't think we can fold AJ+, he doesn't have worse for value, or a semi bluff, yada yada folddd
(folding here is clearly easier said after, than done in practice...) |
Thanks, griff - that makes a lot of sense. Even at 100nl, I'm not finding many regs who think accurately about what I'm representing. Maybe the regs are better at ranges at 200nl. Be interesting to take my shot there later this year, see what happens.
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