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Living dangerously with donks

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dalecooper

09-14-2008, 08:25 PM Post subject: Living dangerously with donks

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

I played both of these hands this morning in a sleep haze and have no opinion as of yet on whether I played them OK or totally botched them both. Opinions welcome.

Villain in this hand has been mouthy and bad. When I first arrived at the table he was berating another player for calling a large river bet with just second pair/top kicker - villain actually had second pair/worse kicker, but felt the other player should have folded to his big river bet. After that he got into an insult war with that player and someone else, and seemed to be kind of tilty, but not totally over the edge. Stats were unremarkable for a fish: 35/10/2-ish.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($43.75)
Button ($51)
SB ($57.25)
Hero (BB) ($50)
UTG ($52.35)
MP ($54.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with

:Qd:
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($1.75)

:Kd:

(3 players)
Hero bets $1, UTG raises to $2, CO calls $2, Hero raises to $8, UTG raises to $14, 1 fold, Hero calls $6

Turn: ($31.75) :Qc: (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $31.75, Hero raises to $35.50 (All-In), UTG calls $3.75

--

No real read on this villain but this was his 3rd min-3-bet since I'd been sitting with him. In all cases where he did this pre he had position and ended up winning the pot without a showdown. All three were within a few orbits. Translation - I have no idea what min-3-bet means from this guy.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($20.80)
UTG ($50.20)
MP ($74.50)
Hero (CO) ($98.10)
Button ($48.50)
SB ($46.15)

Preflop: Hero is CO with :Js: :Kh:
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, SB raises to $3.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $3, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($11)

:Ks:

(3 players)
SB bets $8.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $8.50

Turn: ($28) :Kc: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $21, SB raises to $34.15 (All-In), Hero...

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kmind

09-14-2008, 11:09 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: Not Giving In

Posts: 4,240

1. Pot flop and get it in. Turn is fine as played.
2. Not sure why you stopped your action after his raise? You obv. have to call. I wouldn't bet here with the intentions of folding.

dalecooper

09-15-2008, 01:27 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmind

2. Not sure why you stopped your action after his raise? You obv. have to call. I wouldn't bet here with the intentions of folding.

Yeah, I meant to inject some element of mystery. Maybe I should have just removed his raise as well. I did call, of course.

meeloche

09-15-2008, 01:51 AM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

1) I has 2 pair +fd so I'm never folding, especially vs a tilting donk.

2) This seems fine.

Silly String

09-15-2008, 01:46 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: KC, MO

Posts: 1,434

I agree with kmind on hand #1, shove flop when you have the greatest equity. If you miss that turn you're in a real shitty spot, especially OOP. If you don't like a flop shove b/c you think you don't have any fold equity vs a tilting donk, then just call the first flop MR.

Hand #2 is fine. . . BUT I hate calling that little min 3bet pre b/c I see donks do this all the time w/ JJ+/AK. I usually fold KJo to that raise b/c I can only get myself in trouble by not finding a fold button. I'm obviously calling a wide range, but not easily dominated hands like KQo, KJo, & other offsuit broadways. Does villain 3bet much? Have you seen a min 3bet?
Two things, He seems like the kind of guy to slow play flopped Gin not lead with it. And that case King is so rare after the turn.

Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.

dalecooper

09-15-2008, 01:54 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly String

Hand #2 is fine. . . BUT I hate calling that little min 3bet pre b/c I see donks do this all the time w/ JJ+/AK. I usually fold KJo to that raise b/c I can only get myself in trouble by not finding a fold button. I'm obviously calling a wide range, but not easily dominated hands like KQo, KJo, & other offsuit broadways. Does villain 3bet much? Have you seen a min 3bet?

He had done it a couple times in several previous orbits. It's possible he was just running hot, but I was starting to think that any time he had a hand he wanted to raise with, he would min-3-bet over someone else's raise as well. I had zero proof though, it was just a guess based on the frequency.

Your point is a good one though, and it's something I need to consider more often. Usually my logic has been that the pot odds are too good to throw away any reasonable hand, but when it's a hand that can get me into trouble because it's dominated so much, I should probably just chuck it and not play post-flop guessing games.

Fnord

09-15-2008, 04:20 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I think getting hand 1 in on the flop is less than optimal. I don't think I even make it $8.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

09-15-2008, 04:28 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Posts: 19,339

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly String

If you miss that turn you're in a real shitty spot, especially OOP.

Calling the min-raise keeps the pot small enough to call most turn bets. This guy has already shown that he sucks at bet sizing, tee him up for another mistake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

dalecooper

09-15-2008, 04:29 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,107

I was wondering about that. After he re-popped I immediately thought that I probably should have just called and let the hand develop; I had very low fold equity with this guy after his retardo-raise. Of course a lot of money would have gone in on the turn anyway, as it happened.

nutsinho

09-15-2008, 06:23 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt

Posts: 3,280

definitely dont 3bet flop in hand 1.

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

Silly String

09-15-2008, 06:53 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: KC, MO

Posts: 1,434

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly String

If you miss that turn you're in a real shitty spot, especially OOP.

Calling the min-raise keeps the pot small enough to call most turn bets. This guy has already shown that he sucks at bet sizing, tee him up for another mistake.

I beg to differ. Calling the 2nd MR bloats the pot OOP and we are going to face another bet from any hand that we'll get paid from + our equity just went to 27% if we miss(discounting outs). I don't see how that flop call line can be more profitable 100BB deep since we are going to face tougher decision on later streets & we have to be right far to often. I am going to take the easy way out and take the flip now that we have $20 in dead money in the middle.
But as OP said if the villain provides no fold equity opportunity we should just call the 1st MR to prevent tougher decisions.

Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.

dalecooper

09-15-2008, 07:36 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

SillyString - I think Fnord may have been suggesting to just call the first min-raise, not the second.

Results on both hands:

This was apparently my session to get all the suckouts I feel like I never get. In hand 1, villain had a set of threes but I hit my diamond on the river. In hand 2, villain had AK without a spade (making his turn action really bizarre to me) but I hit my jack to fill up.

Fnord

09-15-2008, 09:29 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Posts: 19,339

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

SillyString - I think Fnord may have been suggesting to just call the first min-raise, not the second.

Yup.

I think putting him on a set at that point is LoL, but you're going to see top pair a lot and another flush draw every now and then.

I think playing hands like that fast with lots of money behind isn't a good idea against people who will pwn themselves. If he somehow manages to price you out on the turn with an over-bet, oh well. Sometimes the fish out-play you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Silly String

09-15-2008, 09:59 PM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: KC, MO

Posts: 1,434

I guess I was mistaken by the quote. I obviously would not consider any turn where I have a pr+FD and only $3 in the pot a shitty spot.
1st min-raise, 2nd min-raise. Frickin fish, got what he deserved. I'm sure Sklansky will flip him some more bills later.

Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.

bigspenda73

09-15-2008, 10:06 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,548

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

There are spots where we have implied odds against a 50/50 range and spots where we don't.

In spots where we do calling>raising and in spots where we don't raising>calling.

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