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Silly String
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04-07-2008, 01:50 PM
Post subject: Live hand at boat deep
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Reads: I have been sitting for about two hours and the table is dwindling and down to 7-8 players or so. It is noonish and the NL game started after the morning tourney started busting out. I have played villain in one other big pot where I raise 7x pre-flop(AQo) and flopped Top2 and he limp called (K9s) and flopped GSSFD. He donks little bigger than PSB ~$50 and I push over since he only had about $60 more behind. He rivers straight.
Villain isn't terrible, but he does play looser than online as evidenced by the previous pre-flop call. He seems loose, but hasn't done anything mega stupid. He does overbet drawy flops with TP type hands to thin the field and discourage multiple callers. He is an old guy who obviously plays a bit at the boat, but doesn't play well enough to move off of the 1/2 NL tables. Probably a net winner vs fish, but net loser vs. regs.
My image is TAG but aggro. I caught cards for my first 1hr+ at the table and have been betting aggressively. Have shown down good hands, and pushed a NFD.
Anyway, here's the hand.
Hand: 1/2NL, $200 max buyin live game in morning.
SB - Villain $350
BB - Hero $450
Hero dealt:  
Preflop: 2 limpers to villain in SB. Villain raises to $11, I repop to $32, Limpers fold, Villain calls.
Flop:   
Villain open pushes just over $300, Hero calls.
I feel this hand is easy 100BB deep, but 175BB makes it a little harder. How'd I do?
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Have to snap-call, and he has AK a lot I would guess. His open push is retarded but it's the kind of retarded you usually have beat.
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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Easy call. And I would make it about $40-45 in a live game because they always call anyway.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deanglow
Easy call. And I would make it about $40-45 in a live game because they always call anyway.
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qft.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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yeah im never folding. chalk it up as a cooler if you lost. thing is i could so easily see some donkey doing this with like JJ/QQ or something.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Since he had donked before yeah call and definitely reraise bigger pre.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
Since he had donked before yeah call and definitely reraise bigger pre.
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This is especially true because of the deep stacks. Make him make a mistake with his call - you really would want to make it $50 or so I think.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I haven't read the other posts so this may have been said already. But, I really think you need to pop this harder preflop.
For a few reasons:
1. you said he's looser than most preflop, so he'll probably call your 3-bet more lightly
2. its a live game and I feel like people like seeing flops and call any amount
3. probably most importantly, its blind vs blind and he's certainly gonna call you lighter here or even come back over you preflop
As played, I prob end up instacalling this flop donk shove. I thik you see Kx, 8x or clubs here pretty often. Open shoves are bluffs a tonnnn .. seems pretty dumb for him to do this deep though.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Honestly though live is such a passive game that there are a lot of spots where you'd think fist pump call when they're actually easy fold. I just don't think this one is one of those, especially against someone who you've seen bet a draw
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Re-raise bigger to protect yourself against him playing set if you don't think he'll make big post-flop mistakes as said.
Board: Kc 8c 2s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.703% 55.72% 02.98% 8826 472.50 { KK+, 88, 22, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 41.297% 38.31% 02.98% 6069 472.50 { AdAs }
Throw in the god-knows-what factor and I would pay this one off every time.
The only reason I might second guess myself here is if he feels he can put us on a tight range, hence he's clearly going for the AA/AK pay-off.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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The fact that he's unlikely to raise 22 from the SB makes this an even easier call.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
The fact that he's unlikely to raise 22 from the SB makes this an even easier call.
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Great point. 88 might not even be a raise for him. Probably one of those I'd have to be there spots.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I really feel like this kind of open shove is weighted towards draws or hands like K8 or something maybe. And maybe KQ/AK.
I can't see why a set would open shove here at all. Especially since this K is such a likely board for us to bet, that he'd just c/bomb it instead and we'd be more committed.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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First, it's live and people make stupid calls at this level. See the comment about him being a regular who hasn't been able to move up.
Second, he's scared you might hit the flush.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Surely we have to add panic pushes here?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Even if you give him credit for having an occasional set in his range, I think this is a clear call because of how often it's something else. In fact just given this action with no read whatsoever on the guy, I think it's a snap call. I would need a lock read that he would ONLY do this with a set before I'd consider folding it.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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First, of all thanks for the comments and discussion.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
The only reason I might second guess myself here is if he feels he can put us on a tight range, hence he's clearly going for the AA/AK pay-off.
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That was my line of thinking after it happened. I obviously paid off KK or I probably wouldn't post the hand. I did pause for a half a second to think of all the AK combos that he is paying me off with and his tendency to overbet flops to defend, then I did my best Phil Helmuth call.
Afterward I wondered if it was obvious that my hand was JJ+/AK and he would shove to get value from JJ-QQ looking bluffy and calls from AA/AK.
The bitch of it was the guy on my left said he folded a K so the guy flopped his one outer. Arg.
Anyway, I wanted to make sure this isn't a fold even 175BB deep. I instacall 100B deep everytime. And whoever was first to bring up the raising more pre was the winner. I discussed this hand with my brother before posting it, and we both agreed that the 3bet size should be more anyway, but definitely should be more with stacks this deep. Especially since I didn't have a lot of history 3betting at this table for the villain to read.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
First, of all thanks for the comments and discussion.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
The only reason I might second guess myself here is if he feels he can put us on a tight range, hence he's clearly going for the AA/AK pay-off.
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That was my line of thinking after it happened. I obviously paid off KK or I probably wouldn't post the hand. I did pause for a half a second to think of all the AK combos that he is paying me off with and his tendency to overbet flops to defend, then I did my best Phil Helmuth call.
Afterward I wondered if it was obvious that my hand was JJ+/AK and he would shove to get value from JJ-QQ looking bluffy and calls from AA/AK.
The bitch of it was the guy on my left said he folded a K so the guy flopped his one outer. Arg.
Anyway, I wanted to make sure this isn't a fold even 175BB deep. I instacall 100B deep everytime. And whoever was first to bring up the raising more pre was the winner. I discussed this hand with my brother before posting it, and we both agreed that the 3bet size should be more anyway, but definitely should be more with stacks this deep. Especially since I didn't have a lot of history 3betting at this table for the villain to read. |
This is such a dumb donk push with top set of K's. You should be 3-betting him a TON SB vs BB such that your range is way way way wider than some huge premium hand here.. that this kind of donk push is in no way his best play.
Good for him, he stacked you when you had AA, and makes zero money when you have air.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Yes, 3-betting terrible players is easy money. They almost always call to see a flop then almost always fold to the c-bet because it's a large real money bet. Do that a couple times a session or so both for value and to set-up getting action on your big hands.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Never got back to this, SS, but it's an easy call no doubt about it. Three-bet bigger, you know that already, but yeah this is a call just about every time.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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id beat him into the pot for suuuuure
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