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a little spew?.. and a little value?

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griffey24

07-13-2007, 06:05 PM Post subject: a little spew?.. and a little value?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Hand 1:
-villain is pretty aggressive and has been re-raising me quite a bit the last few days and making bluffs and plays at me a lot on previous days
-he's running 22/15/3.17
-I figured his flat call PF probably put his range on at best an A with a mid kicker, and I wanted to rep a strong kicker on the turn. Spew?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $237.30
UTG+1: $84.10
CO: $242.99
Button: $197
SB: $130.10
BB: $345.73

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with

Hero raises to $8, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop:

($19, 2 players)
Hero bets $14, CO raises to $34, Hero calls.

Turn:

($87, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $39, Hero raises all-in $195.3

Hand 2:
-button is a fish, running 67/3/2.3 over only like 100ish hands though
-what is the best line here?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $89.50
Button: $104.95
SB: $193.27
Hero: $472.58

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with

UTG folds, Button calls, SB raises to $8, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop:

($24, 3 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn:

($44, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River:

($44, 2 players)
Hero ??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

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|~|ypermegachi

07-13-2007, 06:18 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

1) this could only work if he thinks you play AK like this, and that you have respect that he'll believe you representing AK.

2) donk the turn small. as played, i just put a $15 bet and hope he does something stupid.

IowaSkinsFan

07-13-2007, 06:48 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 7,148

IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough

hand 1: ewww bad

hand 2: raise flop

Check out the new blog!!!

mixchange

07-14-2007, 05:33 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 1,665

Hand 1 I dump on the flop.

Hand 2 I push, he has a King often enough for this to be EV+

shoot, some people may think your bluffing (i.e. who pushes with the nuts) and call with a pair of 10s

sauce123

07-14-2007, 05:42 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Dizzy

Posts: 2,405

Study the past if you would define the future.

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

minSim

07-15-2007, 04:20 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: Deventer

Posts: 1,512

Is hand 1 really that bad? What is his calling range? I think lots of PP's are in villains range, as are some gutshots and air. I think it works often enough especially if villain folds some aces.

Kagey

07-15-2007, 04:27 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2006

Posts: 158

Hand 1: Everytime I 've tried this line I get called down with Ax, leaving me scowling at the incompetence of players not being able to fold etc etc etc. I have now given it up.

Galapogos

07-15-2007, 04:44 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: The Loser's Lounge

Posts: 2,322

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kagey

Hand 1: Everytime I 've tried this line I get called down with Ax, leaving me scowling at the incompetence of players not being able to fold etc etc etc. I have now given it up.

qft

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

andy-akb

07-15-2007, 08:39 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

1. This hand is really confusing me a bit. PF we could be seeing a fairly wide range here, but nothing very strong. AJ/AT, PPs, and maybe some hands like AXs and SCs. On the flop though, wtf is he raising? Why would he raise TPWK on a board this dry? Id expect to see a set or two pair here most of the time and doubt that he would be bluffing this board very often. I guess I just dont really understand the call of the raise at all. This is not the hand, position or board to be bluffing with. On the turn it does lower the possibility of 33, but he still has other hands that will call this. With the hands that he is raising with, you are only folding out a bluff and as I said before, I just dont see him bluffing here that often. I really just think this is huge spew.

2. Your opponent likely has absolutely nothing, but we also dont know enough about them to expect them to bluff this river. I probably just shove this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Is hand 1 really that bad? What is his calling range? I think lots of PP's are in villains range, as are some gutshots and air. I think it works often enough especially if villain folds some aces.

Yea, he has a somewhat wide calling range of mostly weak hands, but thats all pre-flop. What hands is he raising this flop with? Its incredibly unlikely he raises 77 there or Ax. So basically he has air or a hand that has us crushed. So the only thing we are getting a fold from is air, and how often is he bluffing a board this dry? I just dont think it makes sense at all.

minSim

07-15-2007, 09:19 PM

#10 (permalink)

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According to hero, villain is decent. I think he can raise all PP's to protect his hand on this flop, all gutshots as semi bluffs and even air.Why not, hero can pretty much only call with with an A so it's a decent raise with any 2 cards imo.
Hero checks turn so it's up to villain, who can continu his (semi) bluff. I doubt he's betting a weak A there tbh. Ofcourse a set or fh is possible, but I'd expect that to be a small percentage of villains range. I think villains calling range on the turn determines wether this is good or bad.

andy-akb

07-15-2007, 09:41 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

According to hero, villain is decent. I think he can raise all PP's to protect his hand on this flop, all gutshots as semi bluffs and even air.Why not, hero can pretty much only call with with an A so it's a decent raise with any 2 cards imo.

Hero checks turn so it's up to villain, who can continu his (semi) bluff. I doubt he's betting a weak A there tbh. Ofcourse a set or fh is possible, but I'd expect that to be a small percentage of villains range. I think villains calling range on the turn determines wether this is good or bad.

Raise all PPs to protect his hand? Why would you want to "protect" a medium value hand? What are we even protecting it from?

The biggest thing to look at is the board texture. This is an incredibly dry board, so the villain doesnt really need to worry about being drawn out on. Think about his PF range and how they connected with this board. The hands are either pretty weak, TPWK or an underpair, or very strong, two pair or a set. Raising with any of the weak hands would make zero sense. A lot of players will call a cbet if they have a mid PP on a board like this and they obviously arent going to fold TP to one bet. However, raising any of those hands makes absolutely no sense on this, or nearly any, board. So the flop raise basically takes out all medium strength hands from his range and we are left with strong hands and air.

Again, this flop is so dry that the only draw would really be a gutshot and I cant imagine that is getting raise often at all. Thinking about it, 54 is actually a small possibility as well for hands that have us beat.

Anyways, his turn range is heavily weighted towards strong hands already. When he bets again, and somewhat small as well, I would say that narrows it even more.

This play just isnt profitable because no 22/15/3 is going to be playing like you described and even against somebody playing as ridiculous as you described, you shouldnt be making moves like this.

minSim

07-16-2007, 11:02 AM

#12 (permalink)

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I disagree with you Andy, but I'd like to go on with the discussion because I might be completely off here. But I also think it's a fundamental thing and hope others will comment as well.

Say you're villain in this hand and have 55.
So you call hero's c-bet. Turn is some cards 8-K (maybe 10-K is more realistic). Hero bets, you fold because you give hero credit for the A or the turn card or a better PP.
(this leaves you very exploitable to 2nd barrels)

Than the fundamental question, what if hero checks turn. Do you check or bet?
- If you check, you have let hero draw 2 streets for free by calling the flop and you have a tough river decision.
- If you bet the turn, why do you bet? Because you think you are ahead. But if you are ahead here you were also on the flop.
Yeah it costs a bit more on the flop, but you ain't giving hero a free card and that's what you're protecting from; 1 or 2 free cards.

Hero could even fold some better pairs on the flop, so it works as a bluff too.

andy-akb

07-16-2007, 03:33 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

I disagree with you Andy, but I'd like to go on with the discussion because I might be completely off here. But I also think it's a fundamental thing and hope others will comment as well.

Say you're villain in this hand and have 55.
So you call hero's c-bet. Turn is some cards 8-K (maybe 10-K is more realistic). Hero bets, you fold because you give hero credit for the A or the turn card or a better PP.
(this leaves you very exploitable to 2nd barrels)

Then the fundamental question, what if hero checks turn. Do you check or bet?
- If you check, you have let hero draw 2 streets for free by calling the flop and you have a tough river decision.
- If you bet the turn, why do you bet? Because you think you are ahead. But if you are ahead here you were also on the flop.
Yeah it costs a bit more on the flop, but you ain't giving hero a free card and that's what you're protecting from; 1 or 2 free cards.

Worry more about protecting your stack than your hand.

Honestly, wtf are we protecting against on this board? Giving free cards on this board is not an issue at all.

Also, when you talk about protection and giving free cards, you need to realize something. Those are basically things you worry about when you have a strong-ish hand, not an incredibly marginal one pair hand like this.

I personally dont really like playing low PPs for one pair value, but on a board like this, I will typically call because thats going to be the standard board to cbet. However, if they do fire another barrel, then yea, Im going to fold and it will be a good fold. If I find out that they are 2nd barreling with air more than a better hand, then yea, that would be a "bad" fold, but it is one that we can easily exploit, but we dont have that information now.

To reiterate, there are 2 big things we need to realize here:
1. We dont care about giving free cards on this board
2. This sort of goes along with 1, but our hand isnt strong enough to put a raise in solely for protection

If you are raising low PPs in this hand, then you are spewing and while it may be "working" at lower stakes, consistently trying to "protect" these hands is going to get you destroyed at higher stakes.

Quote:

Hero could even fold some better pairs on the flop, so it works as a bluff too.

If you raise with a low PP on a board like this, it is a bluff, plain and simple.

minSim

07-17-2007, 07:29 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Does it matter to you if the high card on a flop is an A or an K, Q or J?

And in general do you play 44 different than say TT? (when both are second pair)

andy-akb

07-17-2007, 02:20 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Does it matter to you if the high card on a flop is an A or a K, Q or J?

Not really. If there is an overcard, then against most reasonable players, raising a cbet in a single raised pot [not 3bet, etc.] is a complete bluff and never for value and the "protection" argument simply wouldnt make a ton of sense except maybe on some incredibly draw heavy boards. This is not one of those situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

And in general do you play 44 different than say TT? (when both are second pair)

Yes. Im almost never folding TT to a single cbet when there is one overcard on the board, but with 44 Im almost never calling a cbet.

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