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AnTman_69
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05-28-2009, 12:03 PM
Post subject: Line check + river options deepish 100nl
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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vill is 21/21 over 40 or so hands. We have no relevant history. He got his stack when we both shipped AK pre him in UTG+1 me in SB. Ive been playing pretty aggro and may have a bad image. Um...can i ever raise this riv for value? Would it just be uber bad against an unknown?
edit: i planned to c/r riv after calling turn, but didnt know what to do after he overbet riv.
$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($205.30)
CO ($151.10)
BTN ($343.80)
Hero (SB) ($176.40)
BB ($115.05)
Pre-flop: ($1.50, 5 players) Hero is SB  
UTG raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.50, BB calls $2
Flop:    ($9, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $6, Hero calls $6, BB folds
Turn:  ($21, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $13, Hero calls $13
River:  ($47, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $51
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05-28-2009, 12:11 PM
Post subject: Re: Line check + river options deepish 100nl
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#2 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
vill is 21/21 over 40 or so hands. We have no relevant history. He got his stack when we both shipped AK pre him in UTG+1 me in SB.
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he seriously hit a flush on you? wow talk about gayness
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,818
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i don't like pre-flop or turn.
river cib
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
i don't like pre-flop or turn.
river cib
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why? pre we fold because...were behind his range bla bla bad reverse implied odds etc? Turn ....u want to c/r? u want to donk? Plz elaborate on your thought process so i can learn something.....that kind of reply doesn't help me at all..
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I think there's an argument for donking the turn
and river is a totally sweet spot to cib because he's going to pukecall AK (when he should probably fold)
but agreeing with daven makes me feel uneasy and scared
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Talk about weird sizing. Calling pre is prob okay if the BB doesnt squeeze much.
Donking a decent double-barrel turn seems not good and his sizing looks a lot like 22 or complete air. Dont fold, dont raise.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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I would play it the same and I guess you can't really raise the river anymore. Not that you really could to begin with if this guy has a fold button.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
i don't like pre-flop or turn.
river cib
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why? pre we fold because...were behind his range bla bla bad reverse implied odds etc? Turn ....u want to c/r? u want to donk? Plz elaborate on your thought process so i can learn something.....that kind of reply doesn't help me at all.. |
you pretty much answered your own question of why calling pre here is bad. As played i want to raise the turn just because his bet is so small, but i dont know if thats best. His line is really weird with the psb on the river, and it looks like AA/set of QQ/KK and obv we have blockers so obv the set is very unlikely.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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As far as preflop goes, you have to fold, calling is pretty bad IMO unless his UTG opening range is like 18%. Reason is when it comes K high or Q high and you are getting action, he is very very very rarely going to have KJ or QJ, you'll always be dominated or he'll have an overpair or a set or whatever.
Against a competent opponent I think you are beat here pretty often. I'd expect to see a set that was trying to induce a raise from you on the turn that now is just betting for value on the river. If he's thinking it all, he can really only expect you to fold like AQ/QJ here, and if he wanted you to fold those, he would have bet bigger on the turn.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Given all that, I probably would have a tough time finding a fold. : /
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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id just flat it here, and yea fold pre if the guy opens tight
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
Against a competent opponent I think you are beat here pretty often. I'd expect to see a set that was trying to induce a raise from you on the turn that now is just betting for value on the river. If he's thinking it all, he can really only expect you to fold like AQ/QJ here, and if he wanted you to fold those, he would have bet bigger on the turn.
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I agree somewhat but I've seen people size their bets like this with draws betting small on the turn and then huge when they miss. I've also seen people get scared of this type of turn card with AA/AK but when you check-call and don't raise they decide they're good and bomb the river. I'd sigh and call.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Please please please please stop saying cib. it isnt cool and you dont know what it means. here you are saying to cib, which is impossible, because a cib is a min-reraise. Here you can only raise. This is a very common and simple maneuver you are looking to execute. It's called "minraise" or "minimum raise", and it is commonly associated with weak play rather than advanced play.
Also, this is a very very bad spot to minraise. It is incredibly likely that he is either beating you, chopping, or bluffing. In the event that he is Capable of bombing for thin value with AK/AA he is also very likely to be competent enough to fold these hands if raised.
As for other streets, preflop is bad, flop and turn are perfect.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
i don't like pre-flop or turn.
river cib
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why? pre we fold because...were behind his range bla bla bad reverse implied odds etc? Turn ....u want to c/r? u want to donk? Plz elaborate on your thought process so i can learn something.....that kind of reply doesn't help me at all.. |
you pretty much answered your own question of why calling pre here is bad. As played i want to raise the turn just because his bet is so small, but i dont know if thats best. His line is really weird with the psb on the river, and it looks like AA/set of QQ/KK and obv we have blockers so obv the set is very unlikely. |
i guess i never really finished this thought earlier. You get no value from raising and i cant find a fold here so call.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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preflop is a fold, flop is fine, turn is fine as he'll often be barreling a scare card and will often follow up on the river with bluffs. Also if we raise the turn I'd expect all worse hands that would v bet the river to fold i.e. ak,aa,kj, aq etc, we don't wan't that. On the river due to his bet size i feel his range is mostly polarised to sets, kq and air, with weaker hands than kq that want to v bet I'd expect them to bet the river smaller, like $36ish. Due to the reasoning above I just call the river, I never fold but meh, maybe a leak.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
Against a competent opponent I think you are beat here pretty often. I'd expect to see a set that was trying to induce a raise from you on the turn that now is just betting for value on the river. If he's thinking it all, he can really only expect you to fold like AQ/QJ here, and if he wanted you to fold those, he would have bet bigger on the turn.
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I agree somewhat but I've seen people size their bets like this with draws betting small on the turn and then huge when they miss. I've also seen people get scared of this type of turn card with AA/AK but when you check-call and don't raise they decide they're good and bomb the river. I'd sigh and call. |
Yeah that's why I think *if* he's a good competent opponent he won't show up with the missed draw here, because I think the weaker players would be sizing their turn bet small for a cheap card and a river bet big to try to "scare" us into folding. Doubt a thinking player would do something so transparent.
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Sugar Nut
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: grinderschool.com
Posts: 42
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why do i think villain has EXACTLY 22 here?
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sugar Nut
why do i think villain has EXACTLY 22 here?
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I'm not sure. Surely he would always play other sets this way, and would only sometimes play 2-2 this aggressively on the flop and turn.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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seems like a simple c/c-c/c-c/c
fold before dem 3 cards come tho
I guess the river can be debatable, but being a station is fun cuz then you never have to wonder what he had!@!!!#
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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Okay thanx guys good stuff. Just a basic pre question though, We're playing KQs here rite? And if we are, it's simply because of flush possibilities, which just play better post, more manoeuvrability etc? I'm a pre-flop donk.
And how big of a mistake/leak is playing this hand pre in this situation ^^^^.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Okay thanx guys good stuff. Just a basic pre question though, We're playing KQs here rite? And if we are, it's simply because of flush possibilities, which just play better post, more manoeuvrability etc? I'm a pre-flop donk.
And how big of a mistake/leak is playing this hand pre in this situation ^^^^.
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It could be not a mistake at all. It depends on what you know about your opponent and will be able to know if your hand is good or not rather than being put in a lot of weird/ugly spots without knowing what to do.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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How bad is it that I want to lead the turn?
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
How bad is it that I want to lead the turn?
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no wonder i suck @ live pokers
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Okay thanx guys good stuff. Just a basic pre question though, We're playing KQs here rite? And if we are, it's simply because of flush possibilities, which just play better post, more manoeuvrability etc? I'm a pre-flop donk.
And how big of a mistake/leak is playing this hand pre in this situation ^^^^.
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It could be not a mistake at all. It depends on what you know about your opponent and will be able to know if your hand is good or not rather than being put in a lot of weird/ugly spots without knowing what to do. |
exaccttly. So the only reason that everyone is saying that pre is bad, is because he is an unknown and i don't seem to have a decent idea of how he plays. Or do most people here auto fold this hand pre despite the fact they think they have a really good idea of how there opponent plays.
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
How bad is it that I want to lead the turn?
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Why do you want to lead?
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Okay thanx guys good stuff. Just a basic pre question though, We're playing KQs here rite? And if we are, it's simply because of flush possibilities, which just play better post, more manoeuvrability etc? I'm a pre-flop donk.
And how big of a mistake/leak is playing this hand pre in this situation ^^^^.
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It could be not a mistake at all. It depends on what you know about your opponent and will be able to know if your hand is good or not rather than being put in a lot of weird/ugly spots without knowing what to do. |
exaccttly. So the only reason that everyone is saying that pre is bad, is because he is an unknown and i don't seem to have a decent idea of how he plays. Or do most people here auto fold this hand pre despite the fact they think they have a really good idea of how there opponent plays. |
if we have an idea that he's tight, it's still a fold obv
if we know he's loose and bad postflop then sure, call... in general though its a fold, he opens UTG, you're OOP the whole hand etc etc.. not gonna be profitable
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
How bad is it that I want to lead the turn?
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Why do you want to lead? |
Maximizes the range that puts money in on the turn, takes away free cards from hands that pot control, sets up 3-streets of value, sets up a re-raise if he's going to go crazy with AK/AA.
That said, the line may have balance issues depending on how you play these spots.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
How bad is it that I want to lead the turn?
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Why do you want to lead? |
Maximizes the range that puts money in on the turn, takes away free cards from hands that pot control, sets up 3-streets of value, sets up a re-raise if he's going to go crazy with AK/AA.
That said, the line may have balance issues depending on how you play these spots. |
actually pretty good line to take with air because it's a double barrel card and you don't want to get barreled
at the same time you're repping the king so while a queen might still call, whatever other marginal hands he might have will shit the bed and go away
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Yeah, I just realized that the online TAgg-bots double barrel here a lot.
If that's the case, it could be a fun spot to c/r.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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I'd prob call here. I think he cud be bluffin here a decent %
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I'm calling here always. His sizing is scary, but its conceivable he's either bluffing or even value towning himself with AA/AK and using a big size to make it look bluffy.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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pre I only call vs. very fishy, loose passive or loose/bad players. Vs. 80% players I muck. and you can only call pre with a plan to bluff raise flops/turns a fair amount
his line looks exactly like 444, 888, or KQ, possibly AA or AK. He can have some random bluffs mixed in, considering the K is a great DB card. I think a lot of his nut hands will make a small turn bet on a scare card to 'keep you in there' and then make a larger river value bet. I'd expect his bluffs to bet turn bigger, and river smaller.
id call getting 2-1, but not particularly like it. I don't find this sizing to be a bluff except against some thinking players
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
Against a competent opponent I think you are beat here pretty often. I'd expect to see a set that was trying to induce a raise from you on the turn that now is just betting for value on the river. If he's thinking it all, he can really only expect you to fold like AQ/QJ here, and if he wanted you to fold those, he would have bet bigger on the turn.
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I agree somewhat but I've seen people size their bets like this with draws betting small on the turn and then huge when they miss. I've also seen people get scared of this type of turn card with AA/AK but when you check-call and don't raise they decide they're good and bomb the river. I'd sigh and call. |
what draws can he have, or were you just making that comment in general? I see this bet sizing but in totally different spots. I read his sizing the opposite way
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TonyB73
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 414
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
his line looks exactly like 444, 888, or KQ, possibly AA or AK |
Wouldn't 44/88/KQ bet more on the turn, and not leave so much behind for the river?
And I also notice no-one includes AQ in his range here - is that because you don't think he would overbet the river having been called on the turn with a K on the board?
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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nah it's because people rarely bet AQ on the turn
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