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Schiplt
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10-14-2008, 06:30 PM
Post subject: line check 400nl
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: poopin
Posts: 67
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Villain runs 25/15/1.4 and calls 3bets too much from IP, maybe he also calls them too much in general, idk. He's kind of a nitty.. The one spew he made against me went something like this: flatted AJo to 3bet in CO, called 3/5 pot bet on AQx flop, bet turn and called allin when checked to, i showed up with AQ. I know I didnt get too much info about his hand, but I feel its marginal to call river
No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($252.40)
SB ($796)
BB ($451.80)
UTG ($747.25)
Hero (MP) ($526.30)
CO ($223.40)
Preflop: Hero is MP with Q , Q
UTG raises $12, Hero raises $36, 4 folds, UTG calls $24
Flop: ($78) 10, 8 , 5 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $60, UTG calls $60
Turn: ($198) 9 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks
River: ($198) 4 (2 players)
UTG bets $168, Hero folds
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Given the history you can't fold here, although his UTG opener reps a strong enough range to give us doubts.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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why didn't you bet the turn?
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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does he call every time or 4-bet ever? also since he does call 3-bets too much i might make it like 44, esp since stack sizes are a little deeper, and bet less on the flop cause its pretty dry.
river call is pretty close. im pretty torn, and it kind of depends on whether you think he would be calling off any 2 broadway cards to your 3-bet, cause if he is this could easily be a bet with a T.
as marshall28 might say, this decision comes down to game flow a lot.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Schiplt
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: poopin
Posts: 67
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
although his UTG opener reps a strong enough range to give us doubts.
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this is what I was thinking. I figured his range for betting that river was 44, 99, JJ, ATs, and maybe QJs.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
why didn't you bet the turn?
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i was planning to fold to river bet and bet if checked to, due to his strong range.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
does he call every time or 4-bet ever?
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i didn't have this stat on hud, but looking back he had never four bet. another stat i did have up but didnt even bother to look at while playing (i guess cause i had noticed him being a station) was call3bet%, which is 70%. So he might be flatting a small 3bet with any pair, ATs+, QJs+
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Schiplt
I figured his range for betting that river was 44, 99, JJ, ATs, and maybe QJs.
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Board: Ts 8c 5d 9h 4d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.941% 52.94% 00.00% 9 0.00 { QhQs }
Hand 1: 47.059% 47.06% 00.00% 8 0.00 { JJ, 99, 44, ATs, QJs }
Nice laydown. Does the money bother you?
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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This feels like monsters under the bed. I dont mind the turn check, but it would be with the intention of calling a river bet.
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Just playing to improve.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Schiplt
I figured his range for betting that river was 44, 99, JJ, ATs, and maybe QJs.
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Board: Ts 8c 5d 9h 4d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.941% 52.94% 00.00% 9 0.00 { QhQs }
Hand 1: 47.059% 47.06% 00.00% 8 0.00 { JJ, 99, 44, ATs, QJs }
Nice laydown. Does the money bother you? |
pokerstove never ceases to amaze me.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Schiplt
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: poopin
Posts: 67
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Does the money bother you?
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no. im actually prbly viewed as a spewtard
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Schiplt
I figured his range for betting that river was 44, 99, JJ, ATs, and maybe QJs.
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Board: Ts 8c 5d 9h 4d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.941% 52.94% 00.00% 9 0.00 { QhQs }
Hand 1: 47.059% 47.06% 00.00% 8 0.00 { JJ, 99, 44, ATs, QJs }
Nice laydown. Does the money bother you? |
Just some thoughts from a 50NL player:
I don't think a 25/15 at has QJs in his UTG opening range. Maybe not even ATs. If he has both, he probably doesn't have 44 in it. (assuming he knows a little bit about position, which is we can assume from a 400NL player imo).
Also have doubt that we can put 44, 99 and QJs for a full 100% in his 3bet calling range. That probably has a lot to do with your image and 3bet history. But UTG being 3bet by MP, this seems a little wide.
If your range is right, than I think it's fair to assume villain got on the river with other hands as well and bluffs some, because your line looks like missed overs.
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Schiplt
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: poopin
Posts: 67
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
If your range is right, than I think it's fair to assume villain got on the river with other hands as well and bluffs some, because your line looks like missed overs.
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i wasnt saying those are the hands he got to the river with, Im saying those are the hands he'd lead river with. but
ive been thinking about for a while, and i think it a call would be fine. its mainly cause of how retard i saw him play that other hand... it seemed like his turn bet may have been thin turn value, lol, so maybe this is some dumb KT, even though it looks like fat value.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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is your image at this table spewtard? if so, def laydown
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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some of the nittiest villains I've ever played opened SC's utg
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I think simply having JJ in his range is enough.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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Calling here would be Awful. Why on earth would villain BOMB the river with a hand we beat? It's pretty easy for us to pot control the turn with overpairs so there's pretty much no value in betting big with a one pair hand other than AA. He also always has showdown value so he also doesnt have a reason to bet a weak pair vs a range that contains a lot of overcard hands that are giving up.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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i wouldnt usually 3bet an utg raiser pre without KK or AA or a bluff
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
i wouldnt usually 3bet an utg raiser pre without KK or AA or a bluff
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how often are you bluffing?
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
i wouldnt usually 3bet an utg raiser pre without KK or AA or a bluff
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how often are you bluffing? |
There is a fun little mind game there if they know you're aware. Particularly if you tend to flat raises instead of 3-betting for thin value.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
i wouldnt usually 3bet an utg raiser pre without KK or AA or a bluff
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i was going to say this as well but OP said something about villain possibly calling 3bets too light so it seemed like a fair enough play
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Quote:
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Calling here would be Awful. Why on earth would villain BOMB the river with a hand we beat? It's pretty easy for us to pot control the turn with overpairs so there's pretty much no value in betting big with a one pair hand other than AA. He also always has showdown value so he also doesnt have a reason to bet a weak pair vs a range that contains a lot of overcard hands that are giving up.
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You make a lot of assumptions for this, notably that villain is a good poker player capable of thinking on that level. I'm pretty sure we can include JJ here in his value betting range if we're read-less here. The only thing that makes me wanna fold river is his bet sizing, it seems pretty big, but I'd probably snap KK+.
Also, we have a villain that calls 3bets too much in general, so 3betting QQ is definitely standard and not even close?
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
Quote:
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Calling here would be Awful. Why on earth would villain BOMB the river with a hand we beat? It's pretty easy for us to pot control the turn with overpairs so there's pretty much no value in betting big with a one pair hand other than AA. He also always has showdown value so he also doesnt have a reason to bet a weak pair vs a range that contains a lot of overcard hands that are giving up.
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You make a lot of assumptions for this, notably that villain is a good poker player capable of thinking on that level. I'm pretty sure we can include JJ here in his value betting range if we're read-less here. The only thing that makes me wanna fold river is his bet sizing, it seems pretty big, but I'd probably snap KK+.
Also, we have a villain that calls 3bets too much in general, so 3betting QQ is definitely standard and not even close? |
To Nutsinho's defense we can be way more sure villain is betting KK+ set here then we can JJ or some T+combo.
Agreed though about calling too much so this threebet is standard. However, versus someone who folds a reasonable amount, your not bluffing here very much at all because opp has a tight range UTG, like 10% of hands, so bluffing isnt very profitable. He's not making any mistakes if we threebet JJ+, AK because he expects it.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
To Nutsinho's defense we can be way more sure villain is betting KK+ set here then we can JJ or some T+combo.
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Yah I agree. Especially since he's betting 168. Would you agree that if he bets 122 here, his range moves close to Tx, JJ than KK+?
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by "Alexos
You make a lot of assumptions for this, notably that villain is a good poker player capable of thinking on that level.
Also, we have a villain that calls 3bets too much in general.
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1. thats not an assumption at all. do you think players who dont think deeply about hand reading often bomb rivers with a marginal one pair hand in 3bet pots? The point of the discussion was that no matter how strong a player you are against we can pretty reliably pitch queens here unless they are maniacal. Plus, the read given is that villain is kind of nitty and passive.
Also, hero was not sure at all how villain reacts to being 3bet while out of position.
Ive shown this to a few people and we all agree that this spot isnt too close at all.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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