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Renton

11-18-2006, 09:51 PM Post subject: Lets talk about threebetting.

#1 (permalink)

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6 handed game. 100bb stacks. Decent Villain on CO who raises the top 15% opens for 3.5xbb. Button folds, we're in the small blind with two cards. Our image is tight aggressive and we've not been out of line. Villain hasn't been out of line.

What are you threebetting with? What are you calling with? What are you mucking?

Here's how I've been handling it. I have been reraising AQ, AK, TT+ about 100% of the time in this scenario, and depending on circumstances will often add in 88, 99, KQ, and AJ to that range. My standard reraise size is (the size of their raise) + (10% of the effective stack) or 3.5 times, whichever is larger.

OK, new topic. What is our plan on the flop. I feel like I am spewing a massive amount of money by betting most flops that I miss. Say he raises, we reraise with AQ, he fairly quickly calls and the flop is T84 with two to a suit. I usually bet 3/4 the pot here, and I feel like i am getting called ALOT in this spot, then obviously I am having to shut down on the turn and give up like 1/2 a buyin to what may or may not be a bluff.

This is also happening to me when I reraise with the aforementioned AQ and the flop is K high. I think 88-QQ are calling me here and then stealing the pot on the turn when I show weakness.

Is the answer to threebet a tighter range? Granted, I am playing low stakes (1/2, .5/1) but these are decent taggs that are owning me over and over in these spots. I feel like they are making bad calls vs. my range, but for some reason the money isn't flowing back to me in the ideal scenarios (AA on a K high flop) like it should be (and that may be variance, I can't say for sure).

One thing is for sure, its making me rethink whether I should be threebetting with big broadway hands, when every time I do I am basically expecting to lose 30-40bb on a fruitless bluff.

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mcatdog

11-18-2006, 10:03 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I think it's a mistake to have a "standard" range of hands that you 3-bet with. You need to have reads on what the raiser is doing that you can exploit. In the past tens and jacks have usually been an auto-3-bet for me, but lately I've just been calling with them against the right type of opponent who bluffs too much post-flop with their missed overcards, and/or has the tendency to make a big river call with a small pocket pair. These guys will usually play closer to correctly if you 3-bet them. Against players who raise pre-flop too much but usually fold to resistance, I'm 3-betting all the hands you listed, as well as any other playable hands about 15% of the time on a random basis.

IowaSkinsFan

11-18-2006, 10:47 PM

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This isn't my complete answer, but i agree that it is very read dependent. Does the player raise significantly more on CO and Button then any other position, or does he not even take it into consideration? Sometimes i'll 3-bet with any two to someone with a loose rasing range on the co and button.

What percentage of the time will he call your three-bet with the hands he raises with?

In terms of just standard crap: i'll fold KQ and AJ OOP to a raise, usually. Unless i want to get frisky. I'm not three-betting 88 but i will with 99. Depending on how often he c-bets will determine what i do with AQ. TT-AA and AK are auto reraises.

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Genitruc

11-18-2006, 10:53 PM

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preflop I think it's a good idea to mix-in SC's and low PP's sometimes in your 3-bet range in order to be less predictable (and give yourself a laggy image if they get showndown). Also, don't c bet EVERY flop after you 3-bet and are OOP. Mix that shit up vs the aware players. If you reraise JJ and the flop comes 9-high, you don't HAVE to bet... Mixing up your play in reraised pots will negate your opp's positional advantage and cause them to freeze up many times. Sure you don't protect your hand, but you protect your stack and by checking the odd overpair OOP, you will earn yourself a free card in later big pots.

Instead of 3-betting hands like AQ and KQs, try using the flat call preflop, check-call flop, check the turn and value bet the river (regardless of board texture and if you connect or not). When someone starts raising my blind frequently and plays reraised pots well I start doing this with hands as weak as J8s and K9..

against the "good" taggs who are stealing against you on the turn it's very hard to make money without making big moves. It's high-risk, but I love taking the stack-a-donk line with air. Of course, it's better to just play on fishier Euro sites where you don't need to surround yourself with good taggs... But Ppl get so scared by the turn c/r (AI if stack sizes make it reasonable) that you can get them to lay down BIG hands. Show the bluff and you will get significantly more respect in reraised pots.

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

Warpe

11-18-2006, 10:54 PM

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I'm more likely to 3-bet w/TT/JJ/AQ in position. OOP I'm just calling with them, precisely to avoid spewing oversized c-bets on the flop.

Renton

11-18-2006, 11:40 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

I'm more likely to 3-bet w/TT/JJ/AQ in position. OOP I'm just calling with them, precisely to avoid spewing oversized c-bets on the flop.

i think this is weak, because you'll miss the flop too much and have to give up too many pots when you both miss

Genitruc

11-18-2006, 11:42 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

I'm more likely to 3-bet w/TT/JJ/AQ in position. OOP I'm just calling with them, precisely to avoid spewing oversized c-bets on the flop.

i think this is weak, because you'll miss the flop too much and have to give up too many pots when you both miss

if you want to avoid big reraised pots vs good players in position you have no choice but to win some pots after the flop when you both miss

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

jackvance

11-18-2006, 11:42 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

against the "good" taggs who are stealing against you on the turn it's very hard to make money without making big moves. It's high-risk, but I love taking the stack-a-donk line with air. Of course, it's better to just play on fishier Euro sites where you don't need to surround yourself with good taggs... But Ppl get so scared by the turn c/r (AI if stack sizes make it reasonable) that you can get them to lay down BIG hands. Show the bluff and you will get significantly more respect in reraised pots.

Won't you be getting *less* respect if you show bluffs? Anyway, you guys sure 3bet with a wide range imo..

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

Genitruc

11-18-2006, 11:44 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Won't you be getting *less* respect if you show bluffs? Anyway, you guys sure 3bet with a wide range imo..

You will get less respect but ppl will know they won't be able to take pots off you as easily. as always, showing is a dbl edged sword.

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

Lukie

11-18-2006, 11:46 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Stop trying to make preset preflop ranges. It's just silly.

Poker is not a static game and against reasonably decent opponents, you will make your most money by adapting to how they play. If that means 3-betting JJ+/AK or 3-betting any suited ace, any pair, any suited connector, and most of your big offsuit cards, then thats what it means. If that means auto-betting the flop against a weak-tight player or mixing it up (eg check/calling made hands against tough floaters, sometimes check/folding, check/raising both as a bluff and for value, c-betting, etc), they are all viable options.

3-betting a preset range and then auto-betting the flop is just so exploitable (many players of course are not good enough to exploit this, some are).

Renton

11-19-2006, 12:21 AM

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k, lukie, how about telling me what your threebetting/flopbetting tendencies are against common archetypes of players?

Lukie

11-19-2006, 01:00 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

k, lukie, how about telling me what your threebetting/flopbetting tendencies are against common archetypes of players?

That's the thing, some of these guys I'm playing against on 6 or more tables every night. This is why I stress the need to adapt! Sometimes I will be 3-betting back the baby pairs because I feel it's often -EV to call OOP with them against a good player but make fine semi-bluffs preflop, whereas I may call with a decent mid-high pair like TT. Against others, I might just 3-bet TT back for value, confident they won't often put me to a tough decision, and just call with 33 and play for a set (and occasionally check/raise the c-bet with nothing).

Quote:

3-betting JJ+/AK

this is nitty-tight

Quote:

3-betting any suited ace, any pair, any suited connector, and most of your big offsuit cards

this is 3-betting light

Quote:

auto-betting the flop against a weak-tight player

the 'required bet' on the flop that I used to always make but have realized in the not so distant past that it's not a required bet against a tough player.

Quote:

check/calling made hands against tough floaters, sometimes check/folding, check/raising both as a bluff and for value, c-betting, etc

probably giving away too much info about my own game at this point

Lukie

11-19-2006, 01:02 AM

#13 (permalink)

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one more thing to think about is the differences between the SB and BB. SB is obviously in a worse spot because of the BB is yet to act behind him. This is particularly true if the BB is agressive and will often squeeze, but is still true since they sometimes call and you have shitty position.

11-19-2006, 02:12 AM Post subject: Re: Lets talk about threebetting.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

6 handed game. 100bb stacks. Decent Villain on CO who raises the top 15% opens for 3.5xbb.

What changes if the PFR'er raises it to 5xbb?
I run into this situation a lot. I am in the SB with AQ and villain raises from CO to 5xBB, and often I fold here. Is this too weak?
If he raised to 3xBB I often 3-bet.
What's the best way to play this type of hand against a semi-loose aggressive player? (I really hate calling with AQ OOP)

DaNutsInYoEye

11-19-2006, 03:18 AM Post subject: Re: Lets talk about threebetting.

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Luckie already said it, but to reiterate. . .

It seems like so many people are looking for standardized lines. If things were that easy then everyone would be beating the games. The problem though is that at a certain level pretty much everyone recognizes what is "standard" so you're actually going to have to start playing your opponents.

You can give a standard answer for situations that occur in a vaccuum. Poker is a dynamic game though. Accordingly your lines should be changing with the ebb and flow of the game. The thought process needs to shift from "how should I play these two cards" to "how should I play this situation?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by JL

I run into this situation a lot. I am in the SB with AQ and villain raises from CO to 5xBB, and often I fold here. Is this too weak?
If he raised to 3xBB I often 3-bet.
What's the best way to play this type of hand against a semi-loose aggressive player? (I really hate calling with AQ OOP)

Some situations are cut-and-dried. This isn't one of them. A canned line simply doesn't take into account everything you should be considering.

How should you play this situation?

Have his PF raises been getting too much respect? If so, then I would lean towards raising. Is he the type of player that calls 3-bets lightly? If so, I would lean towards folding. If he doesn't usually call 3-bets lightly is there any other factors that might influence him into doing so in this instance (ie. he recently lost a big hand and might be tilting, the last 2 times he raised in LP your re-popped him, etc.)? Do I have a solid image? If so, I would give more consideration to raising or calling. Does he 4-bet lightly? If so, I would probably call or fold instead of 3-betting. Does he float the flop a lot? Does he do it in re-raised pots as well? What level is this guy capable of thinking on? etc. etc. etc.

It's the sum of all of these factors and more that should ultimately dictate the way you decide to play.

It's like asking how to get laid... Well what type of girl is she? Is she religious? Is she in a relationship? Did she just get out of a relationship? If so, how long was the relationship? How long ago did it end? What type of guys does she like? Does she like to party? How much money do you make? Is she pregnant? Is she easily offended? Is she on the rag? Is she deaf/dumb/blind? etc. etc. etc.

The best approach for one girl in one situation might be totally different from the best approach for trying to bang some other chick. Poker is no different. It's a game of people. As such, standard lines aren't always applicable.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

badandy519

11-19-2006, 05:20 AM Post subject: Re: Lets talk about threebetting.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Is she on the rag? Is she deaf/dumb/blind? etc. etc. etc.

Best quote ever??

Renton

11-19-2006, 05:21 AM

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LOL READS

Obviously this is a case-by-case. BUT. There will always be unknowns in a game, particularly at lower stakes like 1/2. Or there will be a semi-unknown that you've only played like 20 hands against, who seems like a tagg.

When we encounter these phantoms, and they raise on the cutoff while we're on the blinds with AQ, do we just throw our hands up in the air and say "WELL I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO, he could be a light caller of threebets, maybe he likes to float in reraised pots, maybe he doesn't steal the blinds with a wide range, does he like to party?, is he pregnant?" and then we time out and fold?

Genitruc

11-19-2006, 05:26 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

I usually call and play the first few hands like a station and look him up if I know nothing about him

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

DaNutsInYoEye

11-19-2006, 05:35 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

I usually call and play the first few hands like a station and look him up if I know nothing about him

Until you find out if she has STDs, a police record, or wants children it's usually best to proceed with caution.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

Genitruc

11-19-2006, 05:46 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

I usually call and play the first few hands like a station and look him up if I know nothing about him

Until you find out if she has STDs, a police record, or wants children it's usually best to proceed with caution.

QFT

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

aislephive

11-19-2006, 07:34 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Typically if I have any hand I want to play vs a LP raiser I will 3 bet it or fold. Not always though, and I'm reffering to when it's HU. If there is a CO raise and the button calls I will call with medium-small pairs, three bet big pairs and big unpaired cards, and usually fold all but the best suited connectors / gappers OOP, occasionally calling or reraising but usually folding.

When I 3 bet preflop I don't always fire on the flop. I'll usually always do it if I have complete air, but sometimes with a marginal hand like a medium overpair, TPGK, etc I'll check and try to play a small pot. I'll also occasionally check a really strong hand as well to mix it up. I used to bet kind of smallish like 1/2 - 3/5 pot on the flop, but I think 3/4-4/5 has worked a lot better in resulting in folds so I've been doing that recently with pretty good success.

Jager

11-19-2006, 09:43 AM

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My current 3bet system against unknown is:

Call with PP even TT JJ QQ if it will be heads up. If they auto cbet look to pick up that xtra bet.

3 bet with AA, KK, AK, AQ, AJs, ATs. Auto cbet with these hands.

My logic here is that some aggro's will auto 4 bet allowing me to easily get away from the A hands, if they call I could still win with an A or the flush/str8.

Once I get a feel for their calling range and how they play I alter my range.

Renton

11-19-2006, 03:43 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

When I 3 bet preflop I don't always fire on the flop. I'll usually always do it if I have complete air,

this is exactly what is destroying me. Im getting called ALOT.

Ash256

11-19-2006, 03:51 PM

#24 (permalink)

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What about if you check flop, hammer turn to represent a 2pair/set type hand?

For me, my threebetting range depends a lot on my opponent's postflop play. If I know he'll check-fold without the goods, I'm threebetting most things. Also, if I know he goes psycho and starts spewing chips in reraised pots (as many players do), I'll be happy to pop it to 10BB with a suited connector.

Listen to my music

gabe

11-19-2006, 04:36 PM

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gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

drop down a few levels and experiment alot with it. when you get good at it try using it in your regular game.

Renton

11-20-2006, 01:52 AM

#26 (permalink)

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bump, plz don't die thread.

Can a few good players at midstakes post some spots where they reraised pre, flopped nothing out of position, and bet/checked... ... and their reasoning for betting/checking, given read on villain or lack thereof?

Renton

11-20-2006, 01:53 AM

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this is by far the weakest point of my shorthanded game

sandstorm

11-20-2006, 09:30 AM

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I also suck at threbetting / spots where someone threebets me / firing afterwards

>3

this is my favourite part of the post
it looks like angry boobs

Lukie

11-20-2006, 10:57 AM

#29 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

this is by far the weakest point of my shorthanded game

this is a big problem.

Renton

11-20-2006, 08:06 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

this is by far the weakest point of my shorthanded game

this is a big problem.

thanks for mentioning.

Care to help me with this on AIM later?

gabe

11-20-2006, 08:21 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

drop down a few levels and experiment alot with it. when you get good at it try using it in your regular game.

Renton

11-20-2006, 08:40 PM

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lol gabe im already playing .5/1 as my regular game, and my ego won't allow me to play any lower.

Genitruc

11-20-2006, 08:56 PM

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Here's a hand that illustrates a few of the "big pot OOP" concepts :

Villain in this hand had 58s. A few things this brings to mind :

-it's good to be reraising a wide range since Rav is opening a wide range. By 3-betting a wide range, Rav is no longer getting "implied odds" to call villain's 3-bets. At the same time, he's forcing Rav to CALL the 3-bets since he can't easily put villain on a big hand. This is the point where the 4-betting fun usually begins...

-As played, Villain's line (at least to me) looks like 99-JJ looking for pot-control on the flop. Because of that, he'll often earn a check behind from Rav (and possibly get sucked out on but big deal, overs have 11% chance of making it there on the turn)

-the turn produced a serious cooler, but that's besides the point. Since the pot is pretty big, villain's flop check OOP was effective in earning himself a free-card. If money is going in on the flop from Rav's end, then he prob has an overpair (since villain's check is so "weird" he'll unlikely try to bluff him). The big mistake here (especially because of the level of distrust between ppl in these late-position/blind battles when lots goes in the pot preflop) would be getting bet off your hand on the flop. If Rav were to "not believe" him and reraise the flop, then villain would likely have to toss his OEnder (or push which is sick high variance and prob -EV). Check-calling, on the other hand, is not a bad idea, since he'll be getting a good price and completing his draw would be a disguised monster

(Rav said...)

These types of hands are just killing my sessions lately. Am I spewing with this preflop call OOP and then should I check/call or make a block bet on the river that's small enough so that I can fold to a push? I'm starting to rethink my small pair strategy more and more. Anyway, on to the hand.
Villain just sat down on a bunch of my tables, he's agressive preflop. Turns out he's 23/20/4.5 but I couldn't really rely on that after just 50 hands with him up till this point.

FullTiltPoker Game #1241996617: Table Artesia (6 max) - $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:26:30 ET - 2006/11/13
Seat 1: OffMePlaya ($506.20)
Seat 2: Metrocall ($253)
Seat 3: horryclutch ($786.60)
Seat 4: EnemyZero ($133.10)
Seat 5: tmee314 ($114.10)
Seat 6: Ravageur ($790.35)
horryclutch posts the small blind of $2
EnemyZero posts the big blind of $4
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ravageur [4s 4h]
tmee314 folds
Ravageur raises to $14
OffMePlaya raises to $48
Metrocall folds
horryclutch folds
EnemyZero folds
Ravageur has 15 seconds left to act
Ravageur calls $34
*** FLOP *** [7s 6d 3h]
Ravageur checks
OffMePlaya checks
*** TURN *** [7s 6d 3h] [4c]
Ravageur bets $84
OffMePlaya calls $84
*** RIVER *** [7s 6d 3h 4c] [As]
Ravageur bets $224
OffMePlaya raises to $374.20, and is all in
Ravageur calls $150.20[/b]

Link to original thread :

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...570&highlight=

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

Ravageur

11-20-2006, 09:28 PM

#34 (permalink)

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lol I like how the original thread of that hand was 1 reply only and it was yours.
hehe i think i need to work on making my posts more interesting

Anyway, my $0.02 regarding 3-betting. I want to avoid tables where I'm getting 3-bet by people that have position on me frequently because I have trouble dealing with it as you can see in above hand. Because of this I think we should be 3-betting at a much higher rate in position than OOP (our edge is increased even more than the obvious inherent edge of playing the hand in position). The value of being able to take a free turn seems to be more and more important as I've moved up in stakes (or moved down lol). Although I've come to this realisation only lately...

Another problem I've come across is that when I 3-bet big pairs and get my flop c-bet called, I tend to get into a check/call mode on the turn and river and lose a ton of value from weaker hands in an attempt to not pay off sets. Block betting is a way to get around this, but that seems easily exploitable. I'd have to play the nuts the same way as these hands against an aware opponent.

As far as ranges are concerned, I agree that there's no point defining a specific range against a specific opponent. The flow of the table is what's more important. While I might 3-bet a hand in the first 15 minutes of my session at the table, 1 hour later I might play the hand completely differently (mostly because of the table image I'll have accumulated etc. and the likelyhood of people playing back at me more and more).

Family Cruise IMO

gabe

11-20-2006, 09:50 PM

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HIJACK
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($2464)
SB ($3197)
BB ($2649)
UTG ($1900)
MP ($1921)
CO ($2666)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4

, 2

.
2 folds, CO raises to $70, Hero raises to $225, 2 folds, CO calls $155.

Flop: ($480) 4

, 3

, 6

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $400, CO calls $400.

Turn: ($1280) 2

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $860, CO raises to $2041, Hero calls $979 (All-In).

River: ($5160) A

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $5160

Results in white below:
CO has Jc Js (one pair, jacks).
Hero has 4d 2d (two pair, fours and twos).
Outcome: Hero wins $4958. CO wins $202.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($2777.50)
Hero ($3581)
UTG ($5604.05)
MP ($2518)
CO ($2120)
Button ($2054)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3

, 7

.
1 fold, MP raises to $70, 3 folds, Hero raises to $240, MP calls $170.

Flop: ($490) 5

, K

, 6

(2 players)
Hero bets $300, MP calls $300.

Turn: ($1090) A

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($1090) A

(2 players)
Hero bets $800, MP raises to $1978, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $3868

Results in white below:
MP doesn't show.
Outcome: MP wins $3868.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($6903)
BB ($2070)
UTG ($2168)
MP ($2000)
Button ($6610)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

, J

.
2 folds, Button raises to $70, Hero raises to $240, 1 fold, Button raises to $700, Hero calls $460.

Flop: ($1420) 9

, 5

, 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1050, Hero raises to $6203, Button folds.

Final Pot: $8673

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $8673.

11-20-2006, 11:45 PM

#36 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 166

Hmm, your three betting range is similar to my own and we play similar stakes, so here are a couple of my thoughts FWTAW.

First, when you're three-betting light (99-88, AJo, KQo) a decent amount of your profit comes from CO folding preflop. If he calls, you're probably in trouble, so I'll often check-fold.

Second, a good OOP counter against aggressive players is the check-call, check-call line, when in WA/WB situations. For example, AJo on a dry Ace high board. One metagame effect of using this line is that good player begins to learn that your flop check is not necessarily a sign of weakness, they stop auto cbetting themselves, and that in turn stops you from feeling compelled to c-bet too often as well.

Genitruc

11-21-2006, 03:45 AM

#37 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 4,463

Quote:

Originally Posted by jo

the last part (about going into auto check/call mode) is very important... to my game, at least.

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

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