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JL
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01-09-2009, 08:12 PM
Post subject: Let's talk about just calling preflop raises.
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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What is everyone's CCPF numbers?
Mine are at 13% for 5-max. That's gotta be too high right?
I'd really like to get a discussion started on this topic.
I'd like to know everyone's thoughts on the following:
- - What hands are better to call with IP (rather than 3-bet or fold) vs an EP raise from a tight villain? What about a loose villain?
- What if we are OOP?
- How does the answer to the above question change if villain is 4betting super light or not 4betting at all?
- What if the villain is in late position and we are on the BTN or in blinds? How does this change things?
Because there are already so many topics on 3betting and 4betting, I think a discussion on when it's better to just call preflop will be beneficial for everyone here.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Feel free to post links to similar topics that have already been posted elsewhere.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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mine is 9% for 40k 5max
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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This is really so dependent on the situation, villain and the games you are playing. I don't think you can definitively say a certain percent is too high or too low. I'll give a few thoughts on flatting though.
In position:
-You should be less likely to flat middling hands ip if there are aggressive squeezers behind you in the blinds.
-Against somebody who calls too many 3 bets I will widen my 3 bet value range and narrow my calling range preflop.
- Against somebody who folds to too many 3 bets I will 3 bet sc's, gappers and air more and flat instead of 3 bet broadways that can make dominating pairs.
- Against an aggressive 4 better I would widen my 5 bet shove value range which would also polorize my 3 betting range. I would not 3 bet something like AJ or KQ unless I was calling a shove. This all depends on villain.
-When evaluating what to do to an early position raise you should consider how wide they are opening and adjust accordingly. I don't tend to play a wide range vs ep open's regardless of position.
OOP
I don't flat very much oop unless villain is bad or likely to pay me off. Then I can widen my oop calling range a bit but I still wouldn't play too many hands oop without initiative. Your SB range should be smaller than your bb calling range.
In general I think having a tighter calling range allows you to play that whole range more aggressively and you can credibly represent a wider range of hands than you are calling with.
Feel free to add to this or ask any questions if I need to clarify one part of it.
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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I think flatting in position is so underrated. Especially if you are good postflop.
If you get to the turn a LOT of players suck at turns and rivers, especially OOP and give their hand away a lot, making it extremely easy to play against them.
Try raising the turn in position a lot more, most opponents won't know how to play against it.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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vs utg raises from regs i almost never 3bet any hand in any position
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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vs utg raises from regs i almost never 3bet any hand in any position
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What about from UTG+1 (which would be UTG on the 5-max tables I play on)?
Are you calling raises in position with hands like 43s, 54s, 86s, 97s?
Most regs on my tables open between 15 to 20% of their hands from this position.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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i do start to open up my game against utg+1 6 handed; i would tend to 3bet or fold SCs as marginal as the ones you mentioned facing just a PFR but would call those frequently if CO also called.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I like this topic.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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vs utg raises from regs i almost never 3bet any hand in any position
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I'm sort of like this. I flat a ton of hands vs UTG opens, though I still like 3betting KK/AA in this spot, so I mix in some airball type hands as well.
If you 3bet an UTG open, most ppl will give you quite a bit of respect.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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ive been thinking the same, we can still 3bet AA and KK here since alot of ppl will still put us on the usual 3bet range instead of AA and KK. tho we arent really gonna notice if they do adjust to us but they prob wont.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,074
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I'm like OP in that I've been thinking a lot about flatting. Different in that I almost never did it in the past. I started thinking about what hands are more valuable to cold call with than to fold or 3bet. The weaker broadways come to mind, as do sc's. I obv cc w/ the usual small pp's.
My poker stove work led to me believe that if villain's PFR ~ 12%, we can call for value w/ KQ, AQ, AJs. When PFR ~ 18% we can add KJ, QJs, KTs.
This "value" presumes several things: we are likely to have position postflop, we can outplay the PFR postflop, stack sizes are about 20x and so forth. But I'm just learning, so take it fwiw.
I think I can add one thing to meeloche's post (which was awesome). I like to see a PFR from someone who cbets like 80%. You call for value with a top pair hand ip. When catch top pair (say with KQ), you can often just call a flop bet, check behind on the turn and bet for value on the river against regs at 25nl and 50nl. The cbet flop / check turn line is "cards face up" and weak. This works fine even with predictable set miners behind, but you have to be reasonably sure no one's gonna 3bet/squeeze.
I'll be watching the thread to learn - that's all I can add.
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