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|~|ypermegachi

07-08-2007, 01:29 AM Post subject: let's start talking AK

#1 (permalink)

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over the past 10k hands i'm losing both AK and AKs.
i'm not really sure what to look for in poker tracker, i don't wanna just barrage this thread with hands.

where should i start looking to see why i'm losing here? or is my sample size still too small to get meaningful conclusions? (42 AKs, 126 AKo)

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Fnord

07-08-2007, 03:24 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Post some hands or PM me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

07-08-2007, 03:44 AM

#3 (permalink)

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well, here's some of my biggest losers

this one's from tonight: villain's raised my cbets pretty liberally 3 or 4 times before this. the raise on the flop was expected from him. he was loose, and i thought maybe i would be able to get him to fold, and i didn't mind too much if he called cuz he's loose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hand 1

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $40.55
UTG+1: $110.49
Hero: $98.50
Button: $73.55
SB: $36.05
BB: $86.90

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K

2 folds, Hero raises to $3.5, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 2

($11.5, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $8, Button raises to $16, SB folds, Hero raises to $78, Button calls all-in $54.05.
Uncalled bets: $7.95 returned to Hero.

Turn: 4

($151.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $151.6)

River: 7

($151.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $151.6)

Results:
Final pot: $151.6
Button shows 5d 3d

the rest of these hands i'll just post them with the relevant stats of villains because i won't remember any specific reads.

villain has 23 hands, so nothing useful

Quote:

Originally Posted by hand 2

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $128.85
CO: $93
Button: $228.55
SB: $109.15
Hero: $103.15

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with A

UTG raises to $2, 3 folds, Hero raises to $8, UTG calls.

Flop: J

($16.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $10, UTG calls.

Turn: 6

($36.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $32, Hero raises all-in $85.15, UTG calls.

River: 8

($206.8, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $206.8)

Results:
Final pot: $206.8
UTG shows Ac Js
Hero doesn't show Ah Kc

villain is 15/4/3.6 over 104 hands

Quote:

Originally Posted by hand 3

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $101
Hero: $103.35
CO: $153.15
Button: $45.35
SB: $101.50
BB: $82.75

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A

UTG folds, Hero raises to $3.5, CO raises to $12, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 2

($25.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $15, Hero raises all-in $91.35, CO calls.

Turn: 6

($208.2, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $208.2)

River: 9

($208.2, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $208.2)

Results:
Final pot: $208.2
Hero showed Ac Kc
CO showed Kh Kd

Quote:

Originally Posted by hand 4

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $133.25
UTG+1: $147.98
CO: $53.40
Button: $111.93
Hero: $97.60
BB: $133.87

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with A

UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO raises to $4, Button folds, Hero raises to $12, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: Q

($26.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $19, CO raises all-in $40.9, Hero calls.

Turn: 9

($108.3, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $108.3)

River: 5

($108.3, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $108.3)

Results:
Final pot: $108.3
CO shows Ac Qs

Fnord

07-08-2007, 04:01 AM

#4 (permalink)

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I hate hyper-focusing on big pots because many of those hands play themselves, have obvious errors or marginal decisions where we went aggro.

When looking to improve my score I like to make sure I'm focusing on small and medium pots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

07-08-2007, 04:54 AM

#5 (permalink)

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I think this flop raise sucks. Not shoving the turn once you build the pot and get a blank is pretty bad too.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hyper ($98.80)
Button ($98.50)
SB ($164.90)
BB ($163.45)
UTG ($106.50)
MP ($368.40)

Preflop: Hyper is CO with A

, K

.
1 fold, MP raises to $3, Hyper raises to $8, 3 folds, MP calls $5.

Flop: ($17.50) T

, K

, J

(2 players)
MP bets $9, Hyper raises to $25, MP calls $16.

Turn: ($67.50) 4

(2 players)
MP checks, Hyper checks.

River: ($67.50) 3

(2 players)
MP bets $9, Hyper calls $9.

Final Pot: $85.50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bigspenda73

07-08-2007, 05:02 AM

#6 (permalink)

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bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

The size of the raise or raising in general there fnord

Fnord

07-08-2007, 05:20 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

The size of the raise or raising in general there fnord

If I raise that flop with AK I want to be all-in or against a really terrible player. With about pot behind I think he need to just stick it in on the turn instead of playing river guessing games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

mixchange

07-08-2007, 07:58 AM

#8 (permalink)

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It just looks like you are playing it too aggressively. You want to be the one 3 betting AK. When calling someone else's 3 bet you have to be more cautious on the flop. I don't like pushing if you missed a 3betted flop when you called the 3 bet and missed (hand 1 & 3)

hand 2 it seems like you are playing tptk like its the nuts, I think you lead the turn and fold to a raise. AJ or a set is always possible.

My profitable AK all ins are top two and nut straight, nut flush. Just play it more conservatively and you'll start making it profitable. I lose more with fancy play than I do win... maybe its just me.

Fnord

07-08-2007, 08:03 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

hand 2 it seems like you are playing tptk like its the nuts, I think you lead the turn and fold to a raise. AJ or a set is always possible.

After 3-betting AK, TPTK is the nuts in my book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bigspenda73

07-08-2007, 08:05 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Late night thoughts (disclaimer: I just played 5 HU FL SNGs (4-1 go me))

There's nothing wrong with calling a 3bet with AK PF and felting all low flops...IF you're doing the same with AA/KK.

I guess this merely pertains to playing against the regs as against unknowns I'm sure it's spew.

Our range needs to be balanced a bit though. We shouldn't always have it when we push these flops but we need to have it more often than not. I'd like to see how you're playing your big pairs in the same situations Hyper and see if you're allowing yourself to be exploited.

mixchange

07-08-2007, 08:09 AM

#11 (permalink)

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after you *called* a 3 bet fnord?

seems that felting ak when you totally miss after calling a 3 bet is a recipe to go all in behind

Fnord

07-08-2007, 08:14 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

after you *called* a 3 bet fnord?

Figure pre-flop gets around 24bb into the pot, throw in a c-bet (does little/nothing to define the aggressor's hand), by then I rarely have enough of a read to fold TPTK 100bb deep on just about any flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

mixchange

07-08-2007, 08:27 AM

#13 (permalink)

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I was referring to when you totally missed. The TPTK hand is a tougher spot. Maybe I'm nitty for folding that on the turn, but when you flop zilch are you felting when calling a 3 bet? that would seem like spew

Fnord

07-08-2007, 09:07 AM

#14 (permalink)

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I do this sometimes...

POKERSTARS GAME #6724743887: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2006/10/22 - 05:45:00 (ET)
Table 'Altair III' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: caca993 ($267.45 in chips)
Seat 2: Lundlado10 ($151.05 in chips)
Seat 3: Fnord ($224.45 in chips)
Seat 4: WDG-GCC ($214.30 in chips)
Seat 5: Pudusplat ($349.95 in chips)
Fnord: posts small blind $1
WDG-GCC: posts big blind $2
peemum: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Fnord [As Ks]
Pudusplat: folds
caca993: folds
Lundlado10: raises $7 to $9
Fnord: raises $15 to $24
WDG-GCC: folds
Lundlado10: calls $15
*** FLOP *** [2d Jc 6d]
Fnord: bets $30
Lundlado10: calls $30
*** TURN *** [2d Jc 6d] [3s]
Fnord: bets $170.45 and is all-in
Lundlado10 said, "ahh"
Lundlado10 said, "u have pocket K or A ? :P"
Lundlado10: folds
Fnord collected $108 from pot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

mixchange

07-08-2007, 09:13 AM

#15 (permalink)

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not the same thing -- you are the 3 better here. I specifically referred to hands where you called a 3 better and missed.

Your push makes sense because you've repped it the whole way.

minSim

07-08-2007, 11:06 AM

#16 (permalink)

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I don't think you should call a 3-bet with AK

Ash256

07-08-2007, 03:28 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

I don't think you should call a 3-bet with AK

So we should fourbet?

Listen to my music

noble007

07-08-2007, 04:48 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Location: London

Posts: 531

Do you ever just call with AK

It sounded bizarre to me - its one of the few things I've learnt from the beginning 'always 3bet AK' , but in one of sbrugby recent vids, he said twice its fine to just call and get involved when A or K hits??
It seemed like such a weak way to play it, but I was having problems with it myself & was getting 'too involved' too often with it.
So I tried just calling with it in pos to a single pfr +-35% of the time in the last 10k hands with much success.
AKs is currently 3.8 bb/hand and AK is 1.27.
When A or K flops the opponents still think most Aces and Kings are good as they would expect AK to re-raise pre and I'm getting paid off big.
Although I play at lower stakes where they overplay tp - any kicker,
I presume as Srugby suggested it, that it might have some merit at higher levels to?

bigspenda73

07-08-2007, 08:05 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Noble,

I definitely see where you're coming from but only if we will be OOP postflop. AK can be a bitch to play postflop if we are first to act every street. I've stopped 3betting it so much out of the blinds to UTG/MP openers but I continue to do so from LP openers.

noble007

07-08-2007, 08:40 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Yeah that seems to make a bit more sense.

bigspenda73

07-08-2007, 08:47 PM

#21 (permalink)

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I forgot to mention that the stakes you play mean a ton in determining how you play AK PF b/c of opponents 3 and 4betting ranges.

mixchange

07-09-2007, 10:36 AM

#22 (permalink)

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fnord?

Fnord

07-09-2007, 10:53 AM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

fnord?

Yes honey?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Da GOAT

07-09-2007, 12:28 PM

#24 (permalink)

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i dont know what hand 2 c/r is supposed to accomplish Hyper??? i dont use this line much but surely on that board its a poor play

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

Da GOAT

07-09-2007, 12:31 PM

#25 (permalink)

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i think mixchange was talking about something like hand 3 fnord

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

|~|ypermegachi

07-09-2007, 02:29 PM

#26 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

i dont know what hand 2 c/r is supposed to accomplish Hyper??? i dont use this line much but surely on that board its a poor play

i actually posted that hand on 2p2. everyone said "standard." unless villain is a superdonk (which he isn't) i don't see how it can be standard.

Da GOAT

07-09-2007, 02:47 PM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

i dont know what hand 2 c/r is supposed to accomplish Hyper??? i dont use this line much but surely on that board its a poor play

i actually posted that hand on 2p2. everyone said "standard." unless villain is a superdonk (which he isn't) i don't see how it can be standard.

link??

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

|~|ypermegachi

07-09-2007, 04:42 PM

#28 (permalink)

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...e#Post10497256

albeit only 2 people responded, but since no one else chimed in i'm guessing everyone there agrees or thinks it's close.

bigspenda73

07-09-2007, 05:25 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Don't look for advice over there cuz the poster-pool is so large you have no idea who to trust.

Da GOAT

07-09-2007, 07:20 PM

#30 (permalink)

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i would consider the post unanswered then IMO

betting is by far the best option

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

mixchange

07-09-2007, 08:52 PM

#31 (permalink)

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fnord, just thought maybe you had some dope hands of people folding to when you *Called* a 3 bet and then moved on the flop. Guess not -- it's a bad line IMO and prone to stacking off behind.

You seemed to disagree with me, but I guess you were ignoring the phrase "calling a 3 bet" in my posts ;p

zenbitz

07-09-2007, 10:48 PM

#32 (permalink)

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I thought all those hands were spew.

Cocco_Bill

07-10-2007, 01:02 AM

#33 (permalink)

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looks like you are generally overplaying AK. You played LH before right? I've noticed many former limit players have this leak which in part is due to having poor pot control skills.

|~|ypermegachi

07-10-2007, 02:08 AM

#34 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

looks like you are generally overplaying AK. You played LH before right? I've noticed many former limit players have this leak which in part is due to having poor pot control skills.

i've never played FR before, don't plan on.

|~|ypermegachi

07-10-2007, 02:11 AM

#35 (permalink)

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here's another gem from tonight. villain is a multitabling reg. he's 3bet me before from the BB vs a steal and i folded. even tho this was the 2nd time, i got that "feeling" that he was doing it light.

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $98.50
UTG+1: $87.15
CO: $68.58
Button: $168.30
SB: $98.50
BB: $181.49

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A

Hero raises to $3.5, 2 folds, Button raises to $12, 2 folds, Hero raises to $22.5, Button thinks for about 20 seconds and calls.

Flop: 8

($46.5, 2 players)
Hero chickens out and checks, Button checks.

Turn: 9

($46.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $25, Hero calls for any heart/A/K

River: J

($96.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button is all-in $120.8, Hero SWEARS WTF DAMN IT ALL ROLFCOPTER and folds.
Uncalled bets: $120.8 returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: $96.5

Cocco_Bill

07-10-2007, 02:49 AM

#36 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

looks like you are generally overplaying AK. You played LH before right? I've noticed many former limit players have this leak which in part is due to having poor pot control skills.

i've never played FR before, don't plan on.

FR = fullring? I was talking about limit holdem.

bigspenda73

07-10-2007, 03:11 AM

#37 (permalink)

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Um stop 4betting it OOP if you're not shoving it plz.

|~|ypermegachi

07-10-2007, 03:15 AM

#38 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

looks like you are generally overplaying AK. You played LH before right? I've noticed many former limit players have this leak which in part is due to having poor pot control skills.

i've never played FR before, don't plan on.

FR = fullring? I was talking about limit holdem.

oh my bad. i thought you meant LH=longhanded...

|~|ypermegachi

07-10-2007, 03:25 AM

#39 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Um stop 4betting it OOP if you're not shoving it plz.

i was gonna say i don't like this because we're only called when beat and everything else is insta-folding.

but then i realized, we're only afraid of AA/KK (even against KK we're 30% to win). flipping vs everything else (but there's dead money)....which makes shoving very +EV vs a 3bet.

leak 196 plugged.

Cocco_Bill

07-10-2007, 03:32 AM

#40 (permalink)

Full House

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yeah nothing wrong with shoving AK preflop OOP 100bb deep, but it is very opponent dependant. Against a 25/20 who 3-bets light I'm convinced its the most +EV way to play the hand.

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