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Lukie
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12-24-2006, 07:22 AM
Post subject: let's smoke the ratholers out
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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ratholing in online games - buying in short (usually 20bb) with the intention of doubling up and leaving. This sucks. What sucks even worse is that the poker sites don't do anything about it because it is +EV for them (players buying in short protects players' bankrolls, and also promotes tight play which is also +EV for the sites because it allows for more hands, and other reasons). It does, in my opinion, destroy the game of poker and how it's meant to be played. Hopefully I don't get too much heat from this post as it's been a long time since I've meant to make it, and it's certainly not directed at anybody.
Anyway, There is a great deal (almost staggeringly) about how to effectively play against short stacks, particularly when they are on your left.
I was thinking of making a longer post on this, but I figure I'd throw some basics together here, and if I get some positive feedback, maybe I'll make a longer, better, more professional post. Btw, this stuff applies to your tight, short regular, not some idiot thats never played poker before.
Let's get started, combating short stacks 101:
If possible, avoid sitting on their right. If you are playing in a full stacked game that you have an edge in, and a shortstack with a clue sits on your left, they are costing you money and cutting into your edge. There is no way around this, just accept it. Your goal should be to make the game as unprofitable for them as possible so they won't sit on their games and they certainly won't want to sit on your left. Essentially this comes down to playing nittier, and believe me, they DON'T want position on a nit.
1) assuming you are raising 15%+ hands preflop in SHNL, you need to open less hands with a shortie on your left. It sucks, because hands you could profitably raise against the rest of the field become complete shit against the shorty.   or   would be great examples.
2) If you're opening to 4xbb, you should raise a smaller amount. If you need a benchmark, 3x is reasonable and good.
3) don't get it all-in pf without a big hand. That's right, at 20bb deep, getting it allin with trash is a cardinal sin against a tight short stack. You need a mid-pair or big ace at worst in most cases, and sometimes your range needs to be tighter. I see people getting it all-in with these guys pf with hands like KQ or a small pair and it's really quite sickening. Just to throw out a range here that they might push over your initial raise, and the before-mentioned hands you may see players calling with:
Board:
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 69.5915 % 69.27% 00.32% { 99+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 30.4085 % 30.09% 00.32% { 55, KQo }
If you don't mind losing a 'small' pot, just know that you are making a very big mistake, and going back to point 1, you let these guys remain profitable and in your games, cutting into your profits.
4) for the love of god, stop iso-raising trash against these guys. The limp/push with certain hands is a great move for them, particularly on non-nitty tables. Raising their open limp with KJ or T9s is a terrible play, don't do it. Yes, they limp/pushed AK, it's actually a relatively standard play for them, get over it.
5) there often isn't much room to play post-flop, but just understand that when there is, THEY REALIZE THAT THEY ARE PLAYING SHORT AND DO NOT EXPECT ANYBODY TO GIVE THEM RESPECT. DO NOT PLAY INTO THIS THINKING, WHEN THEY BET, THEY EXPECT TO GET CALLED BY ANYTHING CLOSE TO REASONABLE, AND SOME STUFF THAT ISN'T REASONABLE AT ALL. This applies both pre-flop and post-flop.
6) this is just personal preference, but I try to make sure that if there is a side pot (eg shorty is allin preflop), that it gets checked down. Of course you do not want to say anything as this is collusion, but there is nothing wrong with a simple understanding to check it down, not unlike tournaments. I am ok with passing up some value here as I feel that it benefits me (and the game) in the long run.
7) again, personal preference here. As I've said before, part of my overall strategy is to just make the game as unprofitable for them as possible. As such, I will often point them out to the full-stacked regulars who I know are smart enough to at least play closer to correctly against them then they normally would, but may be playing too many tables to notice them sitting down. Remember, if the short stack is practicing game/seat selection, you don't want them sitting down and you certainly don't want them sitting down on your left. If they do, you have to make them pay so they'll think twice about doing it again.
Anyway, these are just the basics. I tried not to go into a whole lot of detail about specific situations, but this could give you something to think about. There is a good chance that I will make a better post about this in the future, but I'm super tired so I'm going to go pass out.
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gabe
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consider this....if calling a shorties push is SLIGHTLY -ev, then the fact that you bust them often enough and they leave might make up for the ev loss
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
consider this....if calling a shorties push is SLIGHTLY -ev, then the fact that you bust them often enough and they leave might make up for the ev loss
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then they just come back and sit on you're left, rinse and repeat.
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gabe
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they cant come back with 20bb, that was only on party
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
they cant come back with 20bb, that was only on party
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Most games on stars have many games going at any given time. If you're multi-tabling, they can easily sit on your other tables. After a half an hour, they are free to rebuy for the minimum on the table that they just left. Also, by taking -ev shots to bust them, you encourage them to sit with you in the future, which is -ev for you because ideal play against a short stack is very different then ideal play against those that are 100bb or deeper.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
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The 20bb'ers are easy.
You have completely neglected upon how do you counter the 47bb'rs such as myself.
{edit}
Though I will say that many of your points do apply to playing against me as well. Play tighter. Dont go allin without a big hand.
I'm often open-pushing with junk when I know I wont be called merely for image purposes. Its a smoke screen, dont buy it. Getting 3 bet drives me crazy. I've combatted this problem by dropping my preflop raise range a LOT. Chances are if you raise me, I'm going to push over. Don't draw against me, you probably dont have odds. Check/minraising me makes me stack off too much, this is probably a personal problem more than it can be applied to the 50bb tag as a whole.
I'll think of more.
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Warpe
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Lukie, you're ignoring the fact that shorties will generally get all-in with a wider range than a full-buy. They rely a lot on fold equity to succeed. Denying them that fold equity is how you make the game unprofitable for them, imo.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Absolutely not, Warpe. When people fold against me I'm upset, because that means I was ahead and I missed a double-up opportunity. I have no folding equity, and I really dont want any. Any time I put my stack in, i OVERWHELMINGLY want to be called.
Thats speaking as 50bb, not a 20bb.
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Warpe
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Yeah, I'm talking about the min-buy-in player for the most part.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
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warpe, with all due respect, I don't really think you have any idea what you're talking about.
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Fnord
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Lukie is probably refering to short-buys in the 400, 600 and 1k games who might actually have a sound strategy. Not the gamb00ling donators in the 100 and 200 games.
Lukie, the answer is there is nothing you can do. They're playing good poker and are all-in if it's even close. Tighten up and re-consider why you're at the table. Because he's not donating to your bankroll.
Two of the most powerful plays in poker are folding and leaving the table.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
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Well, if ya think about it playing fullstacks often allows you to make -EV plays preflop with the aim of making huge +EV plays postflop (like reraising hands such as 78s, or even just cold calling with them). This just cant be done profitably against a shorty because the implied odds arent there. Against a shorty it is pretty vital to have the best hand preflop.
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Galapogos
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I do't get it, if you're making a +EV play isn't it +EV no matter what? Even if you get unlucky and lose to a shortstack and he leaves, as long as you made the +EV play that should reflect in the long run anyway, even if it's not against the same opponent.
Are you maybe just getting pissed because you've gone through a little stretch where they seem to win every pot you get involved with them lately? I really hate those times. But in the end, I know a lot of money comes from them.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
I do't get it, if you're making a +EV play isn't it +EV no matter what? Even if you get unlucky and lose to a shortstack and he leaves, as long as you made the +EV play that should reflect in the long run anyway, even if it's not against the same opponent.
Are you maybe just getting pissed because you've gone through a little stretch where they seem to win every pot you get involved with them lately? I really hate those times. But in the end, I know a lot of money comes from them.
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we're talking about the tight, good, shortstacking/ratholing regulars. If you bust them, they just rebuy (I know I misunderstood gabe's post earlier when I first responded to it).
+EV plays against them aren't necessarily +EV against the rest of the field (and often aren't).
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