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jyms
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04-13-2007, 01:05 PM
Post subject: Let's play "Find the Leak"
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#1 (permalink)
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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I have a leak, I am not sure what it is yet. This is my first time researching my game since my 10 buy-in downswing. I am going to run thru PT and try to find problems myself.
Those declines are leaks, no? I'm not winning unless someone stacks off to me faster than I can lose money.
I know that you can't watch my game and see so next best thing is stats. I will preface this by saying I know I don't raise enough. I find I limp more at AP since there are a lot more short stacks. Nothing worse than raising small PP's early and a 20BB stack is the only caller.
What do you see, my position stats aren't that bad, they can use some work. But with the small sample I don't know it they are important at this stage.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,042
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Your bb/100 is not ideal.
Oh also this is 2700 hands.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by givememyleg
Your bb/100 is not ideal.
Oh also this is 2700 hands.
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You sir, need to find the password for the Captian Obvious account. Thanks for taking the time 
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Tom42
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 110
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The obvious, your sample size is too small.
You could raise more preflop and steal more, like 20% at least. Also with only 8% preflopraises, you C-betting % on the flop should probably be higher. This also shows in your flop AF, 2.21 seems a little to low.
Your won $ at showdown seems very high, but with such a small sample it probably doesn't say much.
BTW I also play 100NL, but on party.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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It looks like you're simply giving up on hands too easily. How many tables are you playing? If it's too many then you're clearly missing value on hands which you leave to others to pick up, whether or not they beat any marginal holding you might have. The arrowed sections above show zero big losses (as well as zero big wins) so I think you must not be cbetting enough, not be firing enough second barrels, not re-raising enough.
It's okay to let hands go; it's prudent to do so a lot of them time, but if you do it ALL the time then you're losing value and, when you do have a hand, any aware player will simply fold to your aggression.
Alternatively, you could just be running cold - making lots of cbets when you're not hitting anything, and getting called/raised a lot. If this is the case, all you have to do is fight frustration, don't overplay and keep playing your A-game.
But yeah, the sample size is too small. Isn't 2,700 hands what you get through before breakfast? The biggest "downswing" in that graph is barely 400 hands long.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Hehe, Thanks Biondino. I was 4 tabling Absolute. I typically 4 table $100NL and 6 table $50NL. I'm not firing many second barrels as you say, I don't know what comes first, the downswings or the lack of aggression. I have not been playing aggressive enough according to my PT analyzing, and Pre flop aggression is non existent. I have been really upping my C-bets, but not second barrels or check raising flops. I really think my lines for made hands and weak hands are too different and I am getting too easy to read. I need to up my aggression again. I have gotten soft and complacent in the call buttons soft underbelly. Pre flop needs a shitload more raising and less calling, and my turn and river aggression need to be addressed as well.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Identify what kind of shortstacks are sitting at your table. The idiot gambler shortstack, or the weak-tight shortstack. One is looking to lose his stack and the other is looking to protect it. I make a lot of money off stacking shorties or whittling them down.
I feel ya though, about how it feels like you're trying to lose money slower than it takes you to get a stack sometimes. But it's simple to know if you're a winning player or not. You're smart enough to know if you got your money in when you're ahead. If you played a hand wrong, then you can look at it and figure if you make that mistake often enough. And the few times you're not sure about it post the hand.
Right now I'm not making a lot of money on Pokerroom. My bbs/100 is at 3.77 after 30k hands and on this site at the level I'm playing this is a VERY bad thing. But I know the most hands I've lost the money on have been an absurd amount of attrocious river suck-outs. And a lot of hands I normally stand to make a lot of money on have been splits due to a life saving river card (these have been way more frustrating because I've learned to handle the standard beats)
You should play Pokerroom, that way we would be sitting at some of the same tables and that would be like having someone sit and watch your game. I could always use plenty of pointers too.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Players who cbet then check/fold are easy meat for the better, laggier $100 players, as I have discovered to my cost. Floating then betting into weakness is a tactic that works far too well for you to never fire a second barrel.
Also, let's say you have AJo or 99 on the button and a reasonably loose player raises. Do you call, fold or re-raise? Me, I re-raise 3x and put them to the decision - do they want to play this hand OOP in a re-raised pot vs a Tagg? If you just call, you're not taking full advantage of position - the impetus is still with them, and if they cbet, as they probably will, what do you do if you haven't hit?
The dangerous players are the ones prepared to re-raise, especially with position, on every street. But most players don't do this. Keep an eye out for those who do, don't fuck around with them, and make sure YOU are that guy whenever you can.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Right now I'm not making a lot of money on Pokerroom. My bbs/100 is at 3.77 after 30k hands and on this site at the level I'm playing this is a VERY bad thing. But I know the most hands I've lost the money on have been an absurd amount of attrocious river suck-outs. And a lot of hands I normally stand to make a lot of money on have been splits due to a life saving river card (these have been way more frustrating because I've learned to handle the standard beats)
You should play Pokerroom, that way we would be sitting at some of the same tables and that would be like having someone sit and watch your game. I could always use plenty of pointers too. |
Dude, I just left Pokerroom and moved to Hollywood for the long term, but the suckouts were unbelievable in such a short amount of time. I had $600 deposited and removed my last $300 intact 4 days later. The software was driving me batty, I had way to many bad beats and i wanted to get out. I put the money on Fortune (Boss) instead.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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I know from listening to you in Vent and just talking about the game that you play very straightfoward ABC poker. It seems to me we're never talking about bluffing/semi-bluffing.
I could be off-base but it just occurred to me that we're always talking about the bigger pots and it looks like your problem is getting owned in the smaller pots.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Uhhh small sample size. I'm sorry to pull that out but I could show you plenty of streches where pro's were similar.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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LOOK PAST THE SAMPLE SIZE
Stop making that a defense if you don't have an answer
Guys, it's not the sample size it's the shape of the graph.
He's not getting stacked he's losing those 20-40bb pots regularly.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Alright, to avoid the problems, I've replaced the graph and stats with my last 12K++ hands. Now what do you have to say.
Thanks again.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Go the the game notes tab, get all, and find pots at what ever level averaging 25bb. I think it's pots where your cbets get called that you are having trouble with. Again, correct me if Im wrong.
Say you open to 4xBB, get one caller and the blinds fold. Pot has 9.5BB, you cbet to 7BBs and get a call, pot had ~23BB's. This is where I think you find some trouble. It could also be pots where you call a PF raise and call the cbet.
I'd be interested to know if you win more of these type pots than you lose.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Do you not have reads on opponents as you're playing Trainer? I have it in my head as I go which playes are calling c-bets with PPs lower than the board, who the flush chasers are, who doesn't like big pots, who will call down with any top pair, etc. These are important things to keep in mind while you're determining how heavy you're going to get with your c-betting.
And yeah, Pokerroom is swingy as hell some days. The reason of course is because about 90% of those idiots have no problem paying ay price for a draw or will call you down with top pair, and they seem to find a second along the way of course.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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how many tables?
your stats are slightly tighter than mine (assuming this is 5max on pokerroom)
The big difference between our stats is that i bet after a raise at 34-38% and check a whole lot more.
Also, if youre playing pokerroom, are you sitting with the short stacks or just sitting at any table, because i took maybe $600 of my profit of $2000 from full buy ins while playing that site, and considering the rest is like $30-$60 stacks thats lots of fish. Are you sitting with them and practicing good seat selection?
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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I'm done at pokerroom. I've moved back to Absolute. I have a bunch at Boss too (Fortune) and i like it there now that there is PT support. All the hands are from those two sites. i really think most of my problems are stemming from lack of aggression pre and post flop. Not raising enough, calling too much and letting go to early. I do practice good table selection, not so much by picking the right tables, but by getting off tables that don't feel or set up right after some hands.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Post hands, not stats.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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vegascoop
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 224
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I play 100NL at absolute. I'm only 17vpip atm, but my aggression stats look just like yours for flop and turn. However, on the river, I'm only 1.02. I'm not saying mine are ideal, I'm trying to bring them up. I'm running +5BB/100 over about the same size sample since moving up. Small sample I know.
There are a lot of bluffers on absolute. I'm not saying calling big bets on the end is always a good idea, but I think you could be folding too much to guys who play too many hands and go too far with them. Our stats make them want to steal pots from us because they sense weakness. You either have to play more aggro to keep them pure or gird up your loins and call more.
I could have that wrong, maybe you just value bet in spots where I choose c/c. Just throwing it out there.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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What are the typical stats and make up for any given table at AP 100nl (ie is there 1:60/40 and 1:20/17 you and 3:shorties)?
What are the stats of the players that give you the most trouble AND also seem to be winning whenever you see them?
What kind of things give you trouble postflop? Flop C/R? Turn? 3bets? How often are you doing these things?
FWIW I think I have some type of leak that I can't find either. Since Feb 15. I have had 3 10+ buyin downswings, after reviewing almost every hand in those downswings I cannot find 1 hand where I feel I seriously miss played it. Even after dropping 18 straight buyins last Tuesday morning, every hand was played the best I could play it, it was all beats and variance hands. Over this session TT was the only PP showing a profit and AK/AQ were also losing a nice amount.
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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vegascoop
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 224
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
What are the typical stats and make up for any given table at AP 100nl (ie is there 1:60/40 and 1:20/17 you and 3:shorties)?
What are the stats of the players that give you the most trouble AND also seem to be winning whenever you see them?
What kind of things give you trouble postflop? Flop C/R? Turn? 3bets? How often are you doing these things?
FWIW I think I have some type of leak that I can't find either. Since Feb 15. I have had 3 10+ buyin downswings, after reviewing almost every hand in those downswings I cannot find 1 hand where I feel I seriously miss played it. Even after dropping 18 straight buyins last Tuesday morning, every hand was played the best I could play it, it was all beats and variance hands. Over this session TT was the only PP showing a profit and AK/AQ were also losing a nice amount.
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Usually a couple of the 60/40's, but they can be 70/20's even and can be half stacks. 1-2 that are something like 18/14 or 25/8, these usually play full. Some 100bb but most 200bb. A couple of 40/2 type shorties to finish it off. If you play at a good time, you can stay in several 45% to the flop games but it takes a little work at non-peak.
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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Position stats would be nice. But what I can see is
a) you are not raising enough pre-flop. That gives your c/bets far more respect if you raise. With all respect 21/10 is too loose and not aggressive enough
b) without seeing the position stats but you might be loosing a lot of pots OOP. I am folding my SB to steals more than you do for the simple reason that I don't like to play OOP.
That's my attempt at helping, not criticizing.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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you arent felting tp against shortys often enough, and are c-betting into them too much IMO.
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