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| Numbr2intheWorld |
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When we were in Vegas, ISF and I were about 3 days in playing FR live and we were down. It was very confusing for us because the play was so horrific and we felt that we should have been destroying it. Obviously varience was a part of it, but we really wanted to figure out how to absolutely crush the games. We started listing off typical leaks of the regs and figuring out how to exploit them. For example, Leak: Regulars were very scared of flush draws and were not very attentive. Exploitation: Call on boards with Flush draws with other less obvious draws and almost always bluff the flush. So i got the idea that we should do this for 200NL and 100NL (since a lot of us play these levels and they are similar levels IMO), but i also think this will have value for everyone. So lets start out by listing the common leaks of the regs. I'll start. 1. Regulars usually call 3-bets too much both in position and out of position. I say too much because they a. play their hands too passively b. set camp without odds because they aren't stacking you with a set enough c. Play their hands too obviously. Ok now you guys list some. Later we'll try and break down how to exploit these leaks. |
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| IowaSkinsFan |
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| OMG I accidently deleted this post, but at least we seem to have solid discussion about it. | |||
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| Ash256 |
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I get the feeling I'm gonna fall in love with this thread. |
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| mcatdog |
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I don't understand why you'd want to 3-bet suited aces and kings when you're more than likely not winning a big pot unless you make trips or a flush. Like you said it's a good idea to play the opposite of what our opponents put us on. They probably put us on JJ+/AK because that's what they would 3-bet themselves since they're nits, so if they call with a PP they'll probably just check-fold when we make top pair. Have you experienced a lot of people calling down with PP's on A or K high flops because I haven't. Like you said they'll peel one off on a J-9 high flop a lot of the time so wouldn't it make more sense to choose a suited J or T as the trash we're gonna 3-bet with, as opposed to a suited A or K? |
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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 very nice post btw, some of it went through my head, i'll need to reread and redigest. thanks. |
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| IowaSkinsFan |
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Here's a hypothetical. 200nl - Guy raises 4x ($8) from CO 100bb deep. I reraise to $26 with K3s. He calls. Flop comes K75. he checks I bet he calls. turn is a 5. he checks, i check. River is a 9. he checks again i bet he calls with QQ, we win. It's not so much low pp's, but people really dont want to let go of TT-KK. Mostly the value is on the flop, but if we check the turn than bet the river they think "Oh god this is so bluffy i call and my hand is so face up..... omg wtf K3s, what an idiot. LOL just forgot that hand because my other 11 tables are beeping non stop." This hand happens way more than you think, and if we beat the KK-JJ, we've just ruined his edge, and now he's playing 80% of his calling range in "I don't want to felt" mode. The problem is people most of the time aren't pushing light enough on the flop to warrant even calling with tp on a J93 board. That's why we don't do it. |
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| Jager |
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| Axs has been a staple of my opp 3betting range. A5s on a 955 or a A57 flop is just money in the bank. Haven't tried the Kxs though, hmm. I am more than willing to help everyone beat these levels, however I am much more inclined to not post publicly about certain strategies. There are more regs lurking than you guys think. PM are always welcome... | |||
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| sauce123 |
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heres a plan- 3bet pretty much always when ur hand is ahead of their range and also a fair amount of the time when it isnt. So if a 20/16 opens in the CO and you look down at AJo-3bet, u look down at ATs-3bet, u look down at KK-3bet, you look down at 66-3bet cause 3betting is just so powerful one time i was tilting and so to make myself feel better i sat to the left of a reg who was annoying me on five tables and 3bet every opening raise he made (with any two cards) for 2 hours. I won a bunch of money. 3betting a wide range effectively is the single most important lesson you can learn from the cardrunners videos also. |
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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ISF, what are you doing if you whiff completely? CO opens, you 3bet K3s, blinds fold. flop comes...A75 rainbow. are you still cbetting here? turn and river plan? |
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| sauce123 |
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| if there is an ace or king on flop u cbet close to 100% | |||
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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| IowaSkinsFan |
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if the flop is J high or below its cbet nearly 0% of the time, it all depends on what you think there calling range is. |
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| swiggidy |
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Can't you tell a difference at the table between the multi-table nit regular (8+), and the thinking exploitive regular? The multi-tabler is going to have a hard time adjusting his game specifically to one person, and is unlikely to be reading these kind of posts. The exploitive regular you obviously don't want to give a lot of information to, but I would think you would avoid tangling with them anyway. I guess the person you fear giving information to is the person who is trying to think, but right now is behind you in skill. If you unintentionally feed this person information it hurts you. |
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(\__/)
(='.'=) (")_(")
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| Pelion |
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Are we talking about 3 betting in position or about 3 betting both in and out of position? There have been a spate of these posts lately and I dont really understand how we play so many flops after 3 betting light. Someone fill in the gaps for me. 1. Play worse hands than the other players and raise more. 2.....? 3.....? 4.....? 5. Profit? The K3s hand you posted. Dont we lose quite alot when they start check/calling real hands against us? |
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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| Numbr2intheWorld |
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| Can we move on from threebetting and think of more typical leaks? | |||
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Check out my blog http://suited-aces.com
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| Numbr2intheWorld |
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Check out my blog http://suited-aces.com
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| Pelion |
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| Biggest leak = not concentrating | |||
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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| bigspenda73 |
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This thread is quite funny to me for a few reasons: 1. I really don't think you guys should be putting this in writing in a public forum at all ever never ever never. You have AIM, Vent, IRC, etc for this type of discussion and I would suggest using that. You of course know this but I think it should be said AND 2. So far it's turned into a PF thread. What's funny about that is when we first started playing poker at 5nl/10nl/25nl we could easily win a lot of money by just outplaying our opponents PF. We had large edges in equtiy in pots b/c of the fact that our opponents ranges were huge and they took weak holdings too far. Once we get to 50nl/100nl we realize that the players for the most part have looked at PF charts and have become much more competent there. So what do we do? We adjust. We learn to play better postflop and then we start winning again. However, once past 100nl (granted I haven't played 200nl in forever) players postflop games are fairly solid meaning they for the most part don't make large errors postflop (I could be wrong and I hope this thread uncovers their big mistakes postflop). Therefore, what do we do? We adjust again. However, now we go back to PF play. We start trying to find edges PF. It's just interesting that's all, the cycle of it. |
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| sauce123 |
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bigspenda- i think players games pre and postflop (on average) progress fairly linearily throughout the limits. as in i think a typical 2/4 reg is playing significantly stronger poker both pre and postflop than a 1/2 reg |
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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| Numbr2intheWorld |
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Check out my blog http://suited-aces.com
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| bigspenda73 |
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GoGoGadgetpostlfopdiscussionments |
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| IowaSkinsFan |
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You're right, the more money you put into the pot the harder it is for you to play badly postflop. I think in terms of threebetting it's sole exploitation is the fact that people don't understand how to correctly handle 3 bets OOP, and since they are making mistakes, captilizing on it makes us money, As well as having our premium threebet hands make tons more money also. This isn't to say we threebet every time in position we have a decent hand. That IMO is a gigantic leak. We're calling a shitload of hands in position rather than threebetting them. NOW IowaSkinsFan wrote: Quote: 2. Players often are way too passive with their betting on the turn and river, missing tons of value and not pushing hands out enough. |
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Check out the new blog!!!
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| Pelion |
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explain. Checking too often or betting too small? What sort of strength hands are you talking about? |
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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| euphoricism |
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| Biggest leak I fixed: Calling with pocket pairs against button raises. | |||
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| IowaSkinsFan |
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Check out the new blog!!!
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| Pelion |
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I mean. What kinds of hands are we losing value on? I assume you mean TPGK types. How do we lose value? By pot control checking in inappropriate spots? By betting too little when we bet? Other? |
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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| Ash256 |
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Whilst if we're the aggro fucker we're trying to be, and we're putting players to a decision every time we're in a pot with them, then yeah, we get paid, but there's normally a station or two at most tables I'm at, and we can't get them to fold TP+. 100NL is an interesting level for me - the stakes are just high enough for the good regs to make decent money, yet just low enough for the stupid tourney donks/drunk gambl000rs to come for some fun. So are the posts in this thread aimed at beating the regs only? |
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| IowaSkinsFan |
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And if they're that passive im probably not betting the river. neways most of the hands that have us crushed when we hit tpnk are hands that were 35% to pair a flop. Quote:
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Check out the new blog!!!
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| EzDuzIt |
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| Pelion |
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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| IowaSkinsFan |
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Check out the new blog!!!
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| Trikflow77 |
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| havent even read any part of this thread but the first post, but i think 3 betting a lot is the best way to crush these. The players are so weak and any time a 3 bet comes along they fold way 2 often. Most tables are loose passive and playing solid abc with a wider 3 betting range pre and post is prob about optimal no? | |||
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| biondino |
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| sauce123 |
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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| Da GOAT |
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 dont be sadBIG BIG leak of mine I guess Ive discovered the last few days is i 100% c/b after i 3 bet regardless of flop. Im a tight player who doesnt 3 bet all that often. |
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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| Ash256 |
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I've spent the last couple of sessions at 100NL three-betting light in position and sometimes from the blinds if it looks profitable, and it seems to be like automoney at the moment. As a light three-bettor, is it correct to pretty much always felt AK and QQ pre? |
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| Galapogos |
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| sauce123 |
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| you have way more fold equity than u think and fold equity>pretty much everything else | |||
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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| zenbitz |
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| I read this whole thread and I still can't beat 100NL. Maybe it would help if I put in some hands? | |||
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| Ash256 |
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This, I think is really really important to my development as a poker player so please help me out quick.. If I have 8 outs to the nuts on the flop, how often does my opponent have to fold to my push for it to be profitable? Let's say that there's 36 in the pot and I come over the top for 70 more. |
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| EzDuzIt |
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| i wanna say its like breakeven or slightly above ev if he calls half the time. but i could be wayyy off on that. | |||
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| bigspenda73 |
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That doesn't seem correct but I typed it and I aint deletin' it. |
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| mixchange |
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| snowbird4life |
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Yesssss, table selection is the 6th man in poker. I like to sit at loose/agro tables full of donkeys and ideally a donator or two. I refuse to sit at a table full of regs. If your table tightens up, or there is no one on the table who you consider weak or a donk, move to a new table. I try to find tables initially based on: 1) Known Donks 2) Unknowns who look like they are taking a shot or just the casual weekend type 3)Loose/agro tables. Also, don't be afraid to move tables even if you are stuck some money. I remember thinking, "Im going to leave this table because its gotten so tight as soon as i get back to my full 100", forget that, just move when the table is no longer profitable. It really doesn't matter how long you've been there or how much you've won/lost. If the table is no longer profitable, Move. |
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| euphoricism |
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I raise bad players' donk bets far too often. Not those retarded minbet ones, but when the board pairs on the turn and they donk out w/ a serious bet ... you can't push. Its a bad idea. |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| bode |
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| Jager |
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I am liking this line towards light 3bets more and more. It does not pot commit you preflop, and it seems to be just as effective as a full 4 bet. As we all know we only need to 'steal' a 3bet 1 out of 4 times to be +EV. I feel that it also is giving me the ability to make more 'read' based decisions preflop, and I can 4bet a wider range. Thoughts? PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) BB ($218.75) UTG ($429.85) Hero ($220.75) Button ($200) SB ($187) Preflop: Hero is MP with K  , K . 1 fold, Hero raises to $8, Button raises to $26, 2 folds, Hero raises to $60, Button folds. Final Pot: $89 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) BB ($366.10) UTG ($145.40) MP ($217.25) CO ($467.70) Button ($510.15) Hero ($203) Preflop: Hero is SB with Q  , A. 4 folds, Hero raises to $9, BB raises to $28, Hero raises to $61, BB folds. Final Pot: $89 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) Button ($169.90) Hero ($199.50) BB ($324.10) UTG ($225.90) Preflop: Hero is SB with Q , J. 2 folds, Hero raises to $9, BB raises to $30, Hero raises to $61, BB folds. Final Pot: $91 |
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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| Numbr2intheWorld |
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| Small fourbets can put people in a real tough spot. I don't like doing it as a pure bluff though. | |||
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Check out my blog http://suited-aces.com
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| gabe |
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| i love small 4 bets and think they are the nuts. when you play against someone who never 4 bet pushes and always small 4 bets its definitely tougher | |||
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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| so how many times do we need to 5bet so we're +EV from folding to 4bets? | |||
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| bode |
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02-10-2012, 10:26 AM WPT Lucky Hearts Poker Open Starts Today in Florida
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