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Leak plugging: checking flop behind with A high

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minSim

04-18-2009, 10:12 AM Post subject: Leak plugging: checking flop behind with A high

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: Deventer

Posts: 1,512

I don’t think I’m really getting the flop check behind in combination with how the play in different turn cards and situations.
I guess the 3 arguments I most often use to check behind flop are;
1- to catch a bluff on turn/river
2- I have a marginal hand and don’t want to be c/red of it
3- The board is drawy and my hand is bad, just giving up.

I have a feeling I’m using reason 2 too often to justify checking behind flops with A high hands on semi dry boards. I also checked HM and I'm losing money in these situations (if it matters my cbet% is 69).
It left me thinking that I shouldn’t be checking Ax that much in the situations I do, because too often it doesn't have enough showdown value (showdown value meaning the combination of how often do you get to showdown with your hand, and how often it is good) combined with steal equity (how often I can steal the pot on the turn/river).

Also meaning that I should be checking hands with more showdown value in those sitations, for a huge percentage marginal pairs.

For example take the following hand in which I try explaining my thinking;
Villain in this hand is 15/14/6.0 over 73 hands, 3bet 8% out of 73 hands.

Quote:

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer Game#27215843439

SB ($39.30)
BB ($50)
UTG ($70.30)
UTG+1 ($29.30)
Hero ($50)
BTN ($114.30)

Dealt to Hero Q

fold, fold, Hero raises to $2, fold, SB calls, fold,

FLOP ($4.50) J

check, check,
Villains range is very narrow, like 22-99 and some of the lower (mostly suited) broadways, so I’m not folding much although still some and I get to see 2 cards with my overs and possibly getting a bet from Jx when I hit. It’s very possible I’ll get bluffraised by some of his hands because of his aggressiveness.
Because of that I’m checking behind hoping to hit, or take the pot away somewhere, although there aren’t many scarecards.

TURN ($4.50) J

SB bets $3, Hero raises to $9, SB raises to $34, Hero folds,
The most likely scarecard hits and the boards get’s drawy. I’m still having one overcard, a gutshot and some % an extra overcard to Jx though. Still villain leads, but I have no reads or good idea of what hands he’d do this with. As the board is drawy and my line screams weakness (underpairs, mid pairs) he might be doing this with any hand.
I basically raise because the turn is a scarecard and I have some equity behind against villains calling range.

I'll post some more HH's in the first reply just to illustrate the situation a little further and how I deal with it.

Any input on the subject is very welcome!

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minSim

04-18-2009, 10:13 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: Deventer

Posts: 1,512

Some more HH examples:

Quote:

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer Game#26319403535

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer Game#26067176600

SB ($46.50)
BB ($30.45)
UTG ($48.50) 22/7/2.4 over 76h
UTG+1 ($55.35)
Hero ($50)
BTN ($77.35)

Dealt to Hero Q

call, fold, Hero raises to $2.25, fold, fold, fold, call,

FLOP ($5.25) 7

check, check,

TURN ($5.25) 7

check, check,

RIVER ($5.25) 7

UTG bets $2.50, Hero folds,

SB ($50) 22/17/2.2 over 1.5k hands
BB ($50.80)
UTG ($49.25)
Hero ($86.45)
BTN ($56.10)

Dealt to Hero T

fold, Hero raises to $1.75, fold, call, fold,

FLOP ($4) 5

check, check,

TURN ($4) 5

SB bets $2, Hero folds,

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer Game#25921518590

SB ($47.25) 51/18/1.8 over 79 h
BB ($99.55)
UTG ($50)
UTG+1 ($39.40)
CO ($66.20)
Hero ($76.10)

Dealt to Hero 6

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.75, call, fold,

FLOP ($4) T

check, check,

TURN ($4) T

SB bets $3, Hero folds,

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer Game#23954066065

SB ($42.05) 11/10/inf over 91h
BB ($45.15)
UTG ($50.75)
Hero ($115)
BTN ($53)

Dealt to Hero A

fold, Hero raises to $1.75, fold, call, fold,

FLOP ($4) K

check, check,

TURN ($4) K

check, check,

RIVER ($4) K

SB bets $3.50, Hero folds,

griffey24

04-18-2009, 01:03 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Hmmm yah I don't like some of these hands.

The only A-high's I'm checking back are mostly crappy A highs and on boards I'm likely going to get c/r'd on and can't continue.

It's hard to really comment on these hands in a vacuum without knowing villain, cause whether or not to cbet is entirely read dependent. But assuming some avg tag reg type player that isn't too crazy.

I'm almost always cont betting your first AQ hand with two overs on a dry board. Even if we're behind, tons of turn/river cards are going to be decent to barrel.

I think the TdQs3s board is close. It's the t ype of board you will get c/r'd a lot which sucks. At the same time, I might bet just because we have the backdoor nut FD and we can continue on spades. If the hand was Ac6s I'd def just check-give up.

KQQ board I'm betting and taking him off any pairs.

J52 I'm betting, it's so dry and really good to cbet. You likely have the best hand and you have good equity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

bjsaust

04-18-2009, 08:47 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

I dont know how your games play, but the vast majority of people I play against are of the "monkey checked to, monkey bet" variety. This means even if I'm in position and check behind on the flop, they'll bet turn almost always, which leaves me in a nasty situation of not only calling the turn, but perhaps needing to call river too. With A high. So I tend to fold.

I tend to cbet dry boards where they either have something or dont, where I can easily give up if a good barrel card doesnt come, and also boards with some but not a lot of draws, generally a 2-flush but no real straight draws. Second is for value.

Just playing to improve.

Micro2Macro

04-18-2009, 10:01 PM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: http://three-pair.com/

Posts: 4,465

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

doesn't this just give you a great semi-bluff raising opportunity

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bjsaust

04-18-2009, 10:06 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

The few times I have a semibluff, sure, but if I had a draw on flop I would have c-bet, and often will c-bet hands with backdoor possibilities also.

Just playing to improve.

Fnord

04-19-2009, 07:35 AM

#7 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

In hand 3 & 4 I call the river in an aggro online game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

minSim

04-20-2009, 07:14 AM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: Deventer

Posts: 1,512

I think griffey and bjsaust together nailed it.

Of course it's both opponent and the stage of my own play dependant. But my games play just like bjsaust where a flop check behind often leads to facing a turn bet. Of course that should be a profitable semi bluff spot, but my feeling and results show that I'm not good enough in exploiting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaut

I tend to cbet dry boards where they either have something or dont, where I can easily give up if a good barrel card doesnt come, and also boards with some but not a lot of draws, generally a 2-flush but no real straight draws. Second is for value.

I think this is a good gideline. I think the 2 mistakes I'm making are;

1- thinking a cbet only folds worse and get called by better. I guess it's not a mistake still betting in (most of those) flop situations as we pick up the put quite often, there are profitble barrel cards, we still have some equity when called range AND I'm not profitble in checking behind.

2- thinking I'll get c/r'ed light, while most likely my oppenents are far from doing it often enough to exploit me.

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Leak plugging: checking flop behind with A high

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