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Galapogos
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07-02-2007, 05:31 AM
Post subject: Lay down 2-pair in a reraised pot?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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I don't want to lay this down but what do I beat? If I'm not going to call a river push should I even bother calling the turn?
Villain is a 29/16/4.6 regular over about 1300 hands. Despite the fact he's a regular, I have zero notes on him for some reason. But off the top of my head I know he's a pretty standard TAgg. Not much more to him than what his stats say as far as I know.
Texas Hold'em $1-$1 NL (Real Money), #534,438,383
Table Cuenca, 2 Jul 2007 12:19 AM ET
Seat 1: jeka240sx ($100.35 in chips)
Seat 2: dmsharky ($85 in chips)
Seat 3: gregt007 ($74.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Galapogos [ A ,Q ] ($205.75 in chips)
Seat 10: Den_Watts ($30.20 in chips)
Antes/Blinds
Den_Watts posts blind ($0.50), jeka240sx posts blind ($1).
Pre-Flop
dmsharky bets $4, gregt007 calls $4, Galapogos bets $18, Den_Watts folds, jeka240sx folds, dmsharky calls $14, gregt007 folds.
Flop [board cards A ,K ,6 ]
dmsharky checks, Galapogos checks.
Turn [board cards A,K,6,5 ]
dmsharky bets $22, Galapogos calls $22.
River [board cards A,K,6,5,Q ]
dmsharky bets $45 and is all-in, Galapogos...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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snowbird4life
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 246
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I think you screwed yourself on this one... you played it rather odd, Why not bet the flop? Why did you check? I think you bet this flop a decent amount. As i played i probably at the least raise his turn bet to pretty much pot commit us both.
I guess i just don't understand the passivity in this hand.  Why not bet the flop? Why not raise the turn? He could really have anything for you all you know, you just check/called throughout the hand with a pretty harmless looking board with top pair queen kicker. Why?
What are you putting him on? a flush? ak? you have two pair, i think its more likely he is on a an Ax hand or this is a bluff.
Anyway, as played i think your likely ahead here and i call the river.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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i d call the river if i checked flop
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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How can you possibly check that flop or raise turn? I am really confused about how you played this hand.
You basically backed yourself into a corner by playing it so passive.
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noble007
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
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Yeah, I C-bet most flops I 3 bet pre even if I miss so I'm definitely betting this one esp. in position or raise turn.
As played your hand has become under represented by river so I call but you don't really have any idea where you stand so it sucks to play for stacks.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Flop is fine, my only concern is balance issues.
River is tough, I'd probably pay this one off.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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I've heard you say balance a bunch Fnord, what do you mean by that
and why would you check this flop?
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
How can you possibly check that flop or raise turn? I am really confused about how you played this hand.
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I think the flop check is not standard but definately not wrong. What do you guys really think calls if I bet the flop? He called an extra $14 preflop OOP, he's not doing that with AJ. Plus, there's not really a lot to protect my hand from so I'm not worried about that. Though, like Genitruc basically said, I did this to get action from lesser hands on the turn and river so folding would be wrong. I just got that gross gut feeling though when we finlly got to the river.
I think my turn call shows plenty of strength. For him to be bluffing this river after that is pretty spewy, and though I have no notes on him, I know I would have had one about that if that were his style.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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This is a pretty sick spot.
66 seems likely post, but he'd prolly muck it pre to the threebet unless he sucks.
I think you could well have the same hand here.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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check flop to be unexploitable! Unpredictable!
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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call
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Good Points. The more I think about it, the more I agree with your flop check. I can't really think of much that you are beating that calls, unless he made a loose speculative call.
Hmm. I put his range on JJ-AA, AKs -- because this represents 21% of his stack PF. If he's crafty, he would play a set of kings or aces like this.
If he's a regular I don't see why he would setmine for that price, terrible odds. I don't think he has a set if your read is standard TAG.
I'd call turn but fold river. Can't think of thing you beat, except a bluff.
What I don't like in this hand is your huge 3 bet PF. Aren't you basically folding out hands that can pay you and only being called by better hands? What worse than AQ calls a 3 bet like that?
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
What I don't like in this hand is your huge 3 bet PF. Aren't you basically folding out hands that can pay you and only being called by better hands? What worse than AQ calls a 3 bet like that?
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This is a pretty standard sized 3-bet. 3.5x the original raise plus the limper's chips. I don't mind taking the pot down preflop rather than playing a bloated pot with just AQ, plus the blinds would likely call as well if I didn't.
And yeah most of the time I'm only called by hands that beat AQ (which is rare) but if they do call I have a nice hand to play in position in a HU pot.
I could be wrong in doing this but it seems to be right
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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I never see anyone 3bet that big on stars 100nl, I think you lose value going that big and the pot gets too big too fast with almost 20% of your stack in there. Even though there are two of them $12 seems fine to rep a big hand and keep some weaker hands going
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
I never see anyone 3bet that big on stars 100nl, I think you lose value going that big and the pot gets too big too fast with almost 20% of your stack in there.
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Good players 3-bet that big. But you're correct in saying that the pots get really big really fast, and it's hard to play them. But that's where playing a lot, learning, and reading come in.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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This is one of those things I keep hearing, but when I do it it doesn't seem like something that is ev+ against the opponents I am playing.
I know good players say to 3bet that big, and maybe you need to in 200NL and up, but at 100NL it doesn't seem like it accomplishes our goal:
- Have weaker hands call us when we're in position in a raised pot
at $18 we probably lose the weakest hand, and certainly any hands we dominate, such as KQ, AJ, A10, QJ, Q10 that normally we can get good value out of. The hands that stay are the quality hands that may match up well with us -- AK, pp, and some smart regs with sc's if it's deep stacked.
next, there is the problem that say we're called and on the flop we're checked to and we miss. Do we fire a cbet? There is now $40 in the pot with a non-made hand. A good cbet is going to be about $30 and suddenly we have half our stack in a pot where we have ace high. If we're check raised, we have to fold. I don't get it, it seems to emphasize luck on the flop. I'd rather go into a smaller pot on the flop with some weaker hands joining in the pot with the expectation that we can still build a pot post flop.
against hands we dominate, we can still build a pot and take a nice pot in the end, even if the pot started smaller. But we don't get anything out of the easily dominated hands if they fold. That's why I often like just calling with AQ, we punish players playing weaker holdings. I feel like we let them off the hook with a big 3 bet and face tougher post flop decisions.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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mixchange, another reason you want bets this big is know you can use a squeeze in your arsenal against the better players. You can't do that with a $12 bet, you're just enticing people to call with all kinds of hands.
Also, could be the difference in sites, but I have no problem getting callers with worse hands if they're unknowns.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Gala, my point is you want a call from the weak hands. At $12 they are enticed to call, but are making a mistake you gain from -- when that Q flops vs. Q10 the mistake is multiplied by the factor of the pot which is 3 times larger.
I think the squeeze is more valuable when we don't have a hand that is very playable -- e.g. 107s, a6s, but we turn a marginal hand into a hand that won a pot, but we don't lose a chance to win a bigger pot. With premiums like AQs, I think a squeeze is a waste and is better for worse hands.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Yeah but my main concern is if I entice the initial raiser to call I entice the limper to call. And I don't like playing a big pot 3-way with AA let alone AQ.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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mixchange- ur logic makes sense but i think you are underestimating the incredible value of initiative
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Can you explain, I am listening.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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i dont like raising this much pre versus a guy who is just tagg, because we essentially turn this hand into a bluff.
Versus a 29/16 i like it.
I think 16 is fine here if not 15. I don't get why everyone thinks that we have to make people put in a 5th of their stack in. 12% is plenty and it often leads to bigger mistakes by opp.
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