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mouteut
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10-04-2005, 12:40 AM
Post subject: Late Sng Play
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 152
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Ok i heard before on FTR that once that when the blind is 10% or more of your stack, you should all in or fold. I used not to belive it not too much(say i have 4K and blinds are 200/400, ill be raising 2-3x BB).
But then i watched a pro 9 people table SNG and the end surprised me. They went all in every hands at the end(they had 4K and blinds were 200/400).
Every hand, button would all in 50% or more of the hands, same for SB. And every time, they would fold to him. That lasted about 15 hands until they decided to split. I don't understand the logic behind that.
Say i am the BB, ill end up calling them seeing they do this every round, even with crap like K10 since the odds of me behind beat are not so huge.
But i even watched an end match heads up.... AND THEY DID THE SAME. i didn't understand this at all.
So please someone explain this to me, this is OBVIOUS they all in every hands including 23o, so why dont the BB calls the all in when hes got an half decent hand like K10.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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there is an easy way and a hard way to answer this question.
Heads up, you push a lot because its easier to push, than to call a push, you need every blind you can get, and even if you have a marginally above average hands, its probably better than theirs. when pushed at, you probably will fold a hand that might be above average (a2, k5), because you never know if the other guy actually got something decent.
when there are a few people left, like 3-5, and the blinds are 10% of your stack or more, you have to push instead of raise because if you have 4000, raise to 1200, and someone pushes, your stack is crippled if you fold. you have to call. why not just push in the first place. they might just fold and give you the blinds, because odds are, their hand isn't KT, its much worse, they fear getting knocked out and not getting further in the money, its just easier to fold than risk it all on an iffy situation because its much easier to push than call.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Gap Concept...
Quote:
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The gap concept is a term coined by David Sklansky. It is a tournament strategy concept relating to the idea that it takes a stronger hand to call a raise preflop than to make the original raise. In essence, there is a "gap" between the hands that can make a raise and hands that can call a raise. In a tournament, stealing the blinds holds a lot of value. Thus, one can be fairly liberal with raising the pot pre-flop in order to make a steal. However, to call a bet requires a much better hand because you can not win the hand preflop uncontested.
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In other words, once someone raises all in against you, all your fold equity is lost. It's race or fold. When you're sitting with KT against a raise, you're feeling like you have at best a 50/50 coinflip race. That's undesirable on the bubble. Now as your stack gets shorter and less threatening to your opponents, your fold equity diminishes. the gap then reverses itself against you. Now instead of raising all in with KT and making AQ fold, you raise all in with AQ and KT will call.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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mouteut
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 152
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I guess i undertsand 3 handed, even thought its not a coin flip, its about 56-60% but since its the bubble i guess its understandable.
But in heads up i really don't get why they do it. if i was playing such an opponement i think i would surely call with K10s, giving me 56% which seems good to me.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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first off, most people who play heads up at the end of sng's don't push EVERY time. If i get 23o, i just might call/check/fold.
But, the reason they push so much is because the blinds are so big, there is no margin for error. Let's say its at the end of a party sng heads up, you have 3000 the other guy has 5000. blinds are 200/400, you're in the sb with JT. So, you raise it to 1200, and the other guy pushes. Do you call? if you fold you're left with 1800, and his stack is so much bigger than yours that he'll probably put you all-in with any 2.
if blinds are very big, you're just begging for trouble by not pushing your goods hands. I would easily call a push with KTs you're right, but these people aren't getting pushed at and folding KT, they're folding junk.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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mouteut
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 152
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If the guy push me all in when i raised, why wouldnt he call when im all in? I think hes pretty scared of 1200 raise too, and if he all in it pretty much means he has something good eniough to call your all in the first place
I'm somewhat more scared of raise than all in sometimes. I personally raise AA instead of push it. I just make sure hes pretty pot committed so its just like all in
In your example, say i geet dealth AA. I can just raise 1500, then bet 400 on the flop, then all in turn. Hes pot commited.
i rather do that than scare him off with all in
Note that im not arguing with you, im trying to understand the concept.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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If you did raise to 1200 and he pushed back at you, he just might have called your all-in anyway. So then, what is the point of raising to 1200? He is either going to fold, or you are pot stuck and have to go all-in anyway. If you have a good hand, sure it is definitely in your best interest to not just push but to try to trap them. but in the majority of cases you will not have a good hand, you will have a marginal hand that may or may not be better than his, and you would prefer for him to just fold rather than to call or push back at you, and the best way to get him to fold is to just put him all in.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Usually when I get to HU, blinds are not that big relative to both player's stacks. As a result, I don't play push/fold HU poker much.
That said, I think some of the biggest arguments for not 3x raising are:
1. If you're making the play with a hand that you're not willing to call a push with, you stand a much greater risk of your opponent reraising you and pushing you off the hand (because his reraise has a lot of folding equity). He doesn't have to have cards to make this play, if he feels fairly confident you will fold. As long as he's right 50% of the time, this would be a very profitable play, since the other 50% of the time, he's going to win 30% or so with any 2 cards.
2. If you're making the play only with hands that you are willing to call a push with, you may be advertising that you have a big hand - meaning it's less likely to be called than the now standard push.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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If the blinds are 2k-4k, and you both have 16,000 chips, then if you're in the small blind and steal his blind with an all in, the new chip count will be 20,000 for you, and 12,000 for your opponent. You can obviously see the instant advantage.
Imagine playing a poker game where you start with only 16 chips a piece, and the blinds are 2 chips and 4 chips. Can't you picture yourself raising to less than all-in EVER?
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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