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Renton
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04-21-2008, 01:56 PM
Post subject: Lame spot with nfd in rr pot vs tag 160bb deep
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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villain is like 28/22, super aggressive, and has made me fold a lot postflop in the last couple orbits. I haven't seen him show any hands down, but he's either been running hot or he's a spewer. Is it bad to bet the flop here?
Seat 1: Arvid2k7 ($231 in chips)
Seat 2: paulhouk03 ($198 in chips)
Seat 3: Gkastone ($795.95 in chips)
Seat 4: 0Human0 ($200 in chips)
Seat 5: Renton555 ($322 in chips)
Seat 6: Sweet.kr ($197 in chips)
paulhouk03: posts small blind $1
Gkastone: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Ad Jd]
0Human0: folds
Renton555: raises $4 to $6
Sweet.kr: folds
Arvid2k7: folds
paulhouk03: folds
Gkastone: raises $18 to $24
Renton555: calls $18
*** FLOP *** [9d 7s Kd]
Gkastone: checks
Renton555: bets $36
Gkastone: raises $88 to $124
Renton555:
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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In spots like this where I'm IP in a 3b pot and he's the agressor, I always like to take the free card with the NFD.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Shove, what else did you think we were gonna say?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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variance check i guess
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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hate betting $36
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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I hate that flop bet. He's been aggressive and then he checks the flop in a pot that he 3-bet - he's setting you up for a check-raise very transparently, and you have a draw that you'd love to see more cards with. I check behind and look forward to crushing him when a diamond comes off. His AK/AA/KK will cry itself to sleep when it sees what you have.
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clarkatroid
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 55
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in a spot like this i think its kinda sexy to bet like 20 bucks on flop, setting up a re raise shove with tons of f/e
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
I hate that flop bet. He's been aggressive and then he checks the flop in a pot that he 3-bet - he's setting you up for a check-raise very transparently, or he could have QQ JJ TT 9x which i'm gonna need to apply at least one bet of pressure to since i have no showdown value, and those are actually the majority of his range.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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also people pretty rarely c/r this flop in my experience
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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yea i agree renton, a c/r here is pretty strange. Most typical hands here that flopped TP or better are going to lead this flop. I would shove and get it in, you have fold equity and a lot of outs.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by clarkatroid
in a spot like this i think its kinda sexy to bet like 20 bucks on flop, setting up a re raise shove with tons of f/e
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yea, min bet is better than 36
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
I hate that flop bet. He's been aggressive and then he checks the flop in a pot that he 3-bet - he's setting you up for a check-raise very transparently, and you have a draw that you'd love to see more cards with.
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stop seeing monsters under the bed
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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i check the flop more than i bet it
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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"super aggressive"
This must mean something to the rest of you other than what it means to me. How often does a legitimate super aggressive player check a flop after 3-betting, especially a flop with a flush draw and no ace on it? I understand that a lot of players will check that flop with TT-QQ, but I wouldn't classify any of them as "super aggressive."
I'm not seeing monsters under the bed, just reading the OP's description of the player and then doing a little math involving the number two and his identical twin. If this player is less than SUPER aggressive and is just standardish, my take on this changes quite a bit.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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If someone checked KK/AK and bet QQ-TT on this flop I wouldn't really consider them super aggressive I'd just consider them a fish. Even aggressive players usually know not to bluff when they have a marginal hand with a lot of showdown value.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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checking flop is good when you have position. You can really use the info and extra options on the turn and river to make highly +EV plays. I mean if he bets turn you call with clear bluff equity when you miss and checked to on river. Also lets you check down an A or J in a smaller pot for value. You have no bluff equity against ak(perhaps kq) or better on the flop and lesser hands can be bluffed off on later streets.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
If someone checked KK/AK and bet QQ-TT on this flop I wouldn't really consider them super aggressive I'd just consider them a fish. Even aggressive players usually know not to bluff when they have a marginal hand with a lot of showdown value.
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I admit I don't play 1/2, so stop me if this argument doesn't apply to those stakes. Right now I'm at .25/.50 and I used to play a lot of .50/1.00, but that's as high as I've gone. In any event: in the games I've played, "follow aggression with aggression" is a rule of thumb that way overrides considerations of showdown value, which is something most people that don't post here or at 2+2 have no sense of whatsoever. Even a lot of people with stats in that high TAgg, low LAgg sweet spot c-bet EVERY SINGLE TIME after they 3-bet. Mainly because they don't want to get "moved off their hand" by "showing weakness." Yes it's fishy. It's also totally common, so I adjust my strategies accordingly unless/until I've seen someone take a line that shows higher thinking.
As far as the aggressive/fish debate? There are plenty of people who are both. Some fish like to chew on other fish.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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A lot of weak players will call 3-bets with too wide of a range then check/fold so many flops that you can c-bet 2 waffles in this spot. Following through on a 3-bet can't be that bad. Also, part of our pre-flop implied threat against thinking players is that we will follow through.
People have somewhat wised up to the raise c-bet, but a 3-bet defines such a strong range that it still commands respect due to the tigher range and higher stakes.
So I'll buy that 100% c-bet after 3-betting pre-flop is good poker and his check here is really suspect.
That said, I've been seeing a lot of hands recently where people will run lines like this on two missed overcards.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
A lot of weak players will call 3-bets with too wide of a range then check/fold so many flops that you can c-bet 2 waffles in this spot. Following through on a 3-bet can't be that bad. Also, part of our pre-flop implied threat against thinking players is that we will follow through.
People have somewhat wised up to the raise c-bet, but a 3-bet defines such a strong range that it still commands respect due to the tigher range and higher stakes.
So I'll buy that 100% c-bet after 3-betting pre-flop is good poker and his check here is really suspect.
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Quote:
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That said, I've been seeing a lot of hands recently where people will run lines like this on two missed overcards.
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I've seen that too, and it's fucking retarded. Or maybe it's not, I dunno, but they seem to go to the felt and then a showdown often enough that I keep seeing it and thinking "WTF are you doooooing?" The only thing is, usually it's a missed AK (for god knows what reason), and AK didn't miss here. Maybe he has AQ and a burr under his saddle though. I guess this flop turns AQ into AK.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Even aggressive players usually know not to bluff when they have a marginal hand with a lot of showdown value.
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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ot-t69984.html
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Fnord I think you might have misread the OP, renton called the 3bet.
I'm down with $20/shove or checking behind. I probably check behind with a higher frequency.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
checking flop is good when you have position. You can really use the info and extra options on the turn and river to make highly +EV plays. I mean if he bets turn you call with clear bluff equity when you miss and checked to on river. Also lets you check down an A or J in a smaller pot for value. You have no bluff equity against ak(perhaps kq) or better on the flop and lesser hands can be bluffed off on later streets.
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I really liked this post because it applies so well to todays mid stakes games:
1) You should be trying to fuck over people who are trying to get tricky
2) People expect you to be the flop with a fd so much, that actually this line the Bill is pointing out (calling a bet on the turn, then bluffing the river) actually has tons of FE because it's just not a line many people take with a missed draw.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Fnord I think you might have misread the OP, renton called the 3bet.
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Was mostly refering to mcat's reply about the aggressor's c-bet range here.
His checking range is very bipolar, because he's passing on what figures to be insta-profit.
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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I would never bet the flop with such a great draw in a re-raised pot against villain as described.
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