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jo
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03-09-2009, 03:46 AM
Post subject: KQs on button
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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This was literally the first hand I played against this guy so no reads. What should my move be???
BB ($340.35)
UTG ($251)
MP ($544.15)
CO ($64)
Heroine (Button) ($233)
SB ($238.40)
Preflop: Heroine is Button with K , Q
3 folds, Heroine bets $7, SB raises to $23, 1 fold, Heroine calls $16
Flop: ($48) J, 10 , 5 (2 players)
SB bets $38, Heroine...
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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88/call a shove
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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raise/call a shove, $86-90 is goot.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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I bet 87 and called a shove.
Running bad at the moment and second guessing myself 
Thanks for the reassurance!
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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I fold preflop.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
I fold preflop.
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wtf ban, we haz teh KQsoooted
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
I fold preflop.
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wtf ban, we haz teh KQsoooted |
Pffft and she got stacked. Learn from experience n00b.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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In case we're even remotely serious here :P
We can't fold KQs as it's near the top of our btn opening range, if we're opening as wide as we should obv. If we start folding these hands, we're almost folding our entire range (pretty exploitable). plus we have the position postflop
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BigPapi
In case we're even remotely serious here :P
We can't fold KQs as it's near the top of our btn opening range, if we're opening as wide as we should obv. If we start folding these hands, we're almost folding our entire range (pretty exploitable). plus we have the position postflop
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first hand we've ever played against this guy, no reads, we're dominated so much by a "standard" 5-6% 3bet range. This isn't HU, and calling regularly hear with KQ (even soooooted) is a pretty big leak unless he is 3betting 8%+
as played i 3bet/get it in too, but i'm with galapagos on folding pre.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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Ah yes, in this case we have no reads at all to support our idea we're being 3bet light, so a fold is ok at first untill we verify they might be doing that in these spots. I was assuming a standard btn vs blind situation with a light 3better, which they should be if we're opening wide.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
first hand we've ever played against this guy, no reads, we're dominated so much by a "standard" 5-6% 3bet range. This isn't HU, and calling regularly hear with KQ (even soooooted) is a pretty big leak unless he is 3betting 8%+
as played i 3bet/get it in too, but i'm with galapagos on folding pre.
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I agree with this. Just so everyone knows what I feel is standard around here without a read at 200NL or <.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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I don't get it, what range are you continuing with to a 3bet btn vs sb
I'd also open much smaller otb, pot is just a lazy way to do it.
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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yeah definitely open to 3bb from btn. we'll have bigger stacks to play for postflop or we lose less when we fold to a 3bet. when we have more reads on how the blinds respond we can always adjust our size/opening range.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I don't get it, what range are you continuing with to a 3bet btn vs sb
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With zero reads not much. If it turns out he 3-bets light from the blinds then I gladly will take a flop with KQs. But we have no clue what this guy is 3-betting with and KQs gets dominated by a standard value range.
I think getting involved here with an unknown just because it's btn vs blind is a pretty big leak.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Reads shmeads, I'm never folding preflop.
It's quite common for a regular to start off by 3betting the shit out of someone and then tighten up once he's 3bet a few times. This is a very standard way to build a loose image and exploit it, don't fall into their trap!
Of course you don't KNOW that he's 3betting you light but he has a full stack and he's playing 1-2 6max, it's not a bad guess given how retarded aggro that game plays. Maybe you could search his name and see how many other tables he's playing. Anyway I think folding away 1/4 of a buyin until you have solid reads on everyone at the table is not a good way to start a session.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
I think getting involved here with an unknown just because it's btn vs blind is a pretty big leak.
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You're either overestimating the tightness of the majority of players in that game, or underestimating the strength of KQs. It's a pretty sweet hand and it's not a "big" leak to call here against almost anyone.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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I think this is level dependent. At 50NL/100NL you get owned by AK/AQ here a lot. I will add that I'm terrible at playing this type of hand if I whiff the flop vs a complete unknown, so that reduces my EV in this spot.
Any tips on reacting to a 1/2-3/4 cbet on a J 6 5 vs an unknown?
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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mcat how exactly are we folding away a 1/4 of a buyin by losing 3bbs?
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Wow, I'm surprised this thread kept going. I thought pre was debatable. With my stronger hands I tend to play them against unknowns until I know they are tight players. With my weaker hands I tend to fold them against unknowns until I know they are loose players.
I usually vary my bet size in earlier position, but become more consistent towards the later positions. I go back and forth on whether that 0.5BB has much of an effect an my results or on how my opponents play.
As for Silly String's example flop, I'd fold. If an unknown is c-betting me OOP, I want something more than overs and a backdoor. Maybe that's a bigger leak than calling in the first place!
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
mcat how exactly are we folding away a 1/4 of a buyin by losing 3bbs?
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I think Mike was referring to the long-term effect of folding 85%+ of hands we open the button with to a 3bet.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
mcat how exactly are we folding away a 1/4 of a buyin by losing 3bbs?
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Ooh, I think I know the answer to this.
Let "buyin" = x
If 1/4 * x = 3, then
1 * x = 3 * 4
x = 12
Tada! "buyin" must exactly equal 12.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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14 in your case!
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
mcat how exactly are we folding away a 1/4 of a buyin by losing 3bbs?
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I think Mike was referring to the long-term effect of folding 85%+ of hands we open the button with to a 3bet. |
well i'm certainly not advocating folding 85% to 3bets, thats obv a huge mistake, but there are better hands to call with without a read.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
mcat how exactly are we folding away a 1/4 of a buyin by losing 3bbs?
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I think Mike was referring to the long-term effect of folding 85%+ of hands we open the button with to a 3bet. |
well i'm certainly not advocating folding 85% to 3bets, thats obv a huge mistake, but there are better hands to call with without a read. |
Which hands are better to call with? You need to list at least 15% of the hands you open on the button in order to support your statement.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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lol at folding preflop. why do we need reads to call with a slightly non premium hand? if we have no reads it is correct to assume the player is positionally aware and playing like a reg at those limits until we have info to the contrary. it is not correct to assume the player is very tight until shown otherwise.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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calling flop seems superior to raise
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Renton with the re-hijack...
Aren't we worried about getting blown off on the turn? It seems to me with this kind of a hand the turn can really hurt us if it's a blank and we see another bet from SB.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
calling flop seems superior to raise
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Why do you think so?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Calling sets up a bad SPR for us on the turn.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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high implied odds, unlikely to be barreled on a blank, backdoor flush draw, etc
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AlKo4g7iC
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario , Canada
Posts: 25
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definitely don't fold i would re raise actually to be honest with about 1 and a half more than his bet to try and get him to fold.
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KRS ONE -- iLogiC -- knowledge reigns supreme -- **** the normal
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