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Renton
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12-11-2006, 10:08 AM
Post subject: KQ reraised pot vs tag
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Villain is tag-like, but probably a little too loose. I haven't reraised him yet (we haven't been playing long).
I've been mixing in a lot more reraising in position against regulars, with some success. This was a good spot, right? Can I get away ever after the flop when I flop a pair? Or is it like AK?
POKERSTARS GAME #7393939056: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/12/11 - 02:30:21 (ET)
Table 'Elephenor II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: andypok ($107.10 in chips)
Seat 2: Crebilin ($62.95 in chips)
Seat 3: DannyTario ($112.65 in chips)
Seat 4: Renton555 ($109.45 in chips)
Seat 5: tbc79 ($134.25 in chips)
Seat 6: LanderD ($230.15 in chips)
tbc79: posts small blind $0.50
LanderD: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Qs Kd]
andypok: folds
Crebilin: calls $1
DannyTario: raises $3 to $4
Renton555: raises $10 to $14
tbc79: folds
LanderD: folds
Crebilin: folds
DannyTario: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [Kh 6s 4c]
DannyTario: checks
Renton555: bets $24
DannyTario: raises $24 to $48
Renton555: ????????????????
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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call and then fold the turn, or just dont bet the flop
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
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This is probably a clear fold as frustrating as it is.
I think I like reraising small-mid pairs/small-mid suited connectors in this spot more than a hand like KQ for reverse implied odds reasons if you're feeling frisky. But meh, you're usually gonna take this down on the flop so maybe it's +ev.
Anyway like Gabe said you could call and fold to turn agression. But he's probably betting the turn strong like 90% of the time and you don't even know if you're in a spot to improve. So the flop call might just be pure spewage. If this wasn't a reraised pot I would play it different, but in this spot I think you can just fold it right now.
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Family Cruise IMO
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Robert
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Kokkedal, Denmark
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Renton,
Against tight opponents I wouldnt bet this flop.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Checking the flop makes no sense. On the flop I'd either fold or raise all-in, depending on what his check-minraise probably means.
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gabe
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Moderator
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actually there are a few good reasons to check the flop
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
actually there are a few good reasons to check the flop
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elaborate?
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LOL OPERATIONS
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
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I like 80% check, 20% bet. As played, it's a tough fold if you have any respect for your opponent at all.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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I've noticed that a lot of players have fancy play syndrome in re-raised pots. They always bet the flop when they whiff but when they flop a medium strength hand like KQ on a king high flop they usually check.
I can understand the reasoning for checking this flop but I'd rather give my c-bets credibility by usually betting when I have the hand. Otherwise it seems like it would be too easy for people to float you or push you around in re-raised pots.
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gabe
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Moderator
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yea im not saying i always check here, just pointing out that saying it 'makes no sense' is way off.
checking controls the size of the pot and might get us an extra bet on a later street because of the deception, whether by inducing a bluff or squeezing in a thin value bet.
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Robert
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
I can understand the reasoning for checking this flop but I'd rather give my c-bets credibility by usually betting when I have the hand. Otherwise it seems like it would be too easy for people to float you or push you around in re-raised pots.
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I usually dont worry about my image in regards to c-bet credibility in reraised pots, unless I'm up against a regular I'm playing against really often. These spots dont happen often enough
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
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This flop almost always misses his hand, so I would just bet since this is an almost zero-risk way of winning the pot, which is what I want when a pot is raised and reraised before the flop. I don't care much about "getting more value" out of top pair second kicker, since there isn't much more to gain from hands like 9-9 anyways. Checking is usually just giving a free card to similar hands that will only give much additional action when you're beat.
Honestly, if you aren't willing to bet a K high flop with K-Q, why reraise with it before the flop?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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I 100% agree with gabe here, and it's not often that happens. I think we should check the the flop sometimes here... although it's hard to say exactly how often but it should be a non-trivial % of the time.
dsax, can you elaborate on these 2 points?
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This flop almost always misses his hand
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and
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I don't care much about "getting more value" out of my hand, since there isn't much more to gain from hands like 9-9 anyways. Checking is usually just giving a free card to similar hands that will only give much additional action when you're beat.
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assume that we'll occasionally check back hands we miss here as well, such as AQ. I think it's a poor assumption that 99 will never give us action here. If I'm villain holding 99 here, I'm certainly not check/folding here everytime if I'm getting 3-bet behind by hands as weak as KQo. Also, on the subject of giving a free card, how many hands that we are ahead of right now have more then 3 outs? There aren't many...
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joshuadzl
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 287
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I'd call and see the turn. Calling like that will often induce a weaker hand to show down cheap when you just call the raise there, especially after PF action. Or, induce a stronger hand to nail you on the turn. Either way, I like call and a fold to large bet on the turn. I think you're probably getting away cheap to the river though.
I like the play as posted.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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i actually thought it was push or fold
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joshuadzl
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Flush
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Thats because you are in love with playing for stacks. 
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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Lukie,
The fact that you will occasionally check the flop when you miss does not mean you'll get added action from middle pairs by checking, unless you frequently check and then just randomly start betting with A-Q on a later street, and your responds by making loose calls. And besides, do you always have a hand that beats 9-9 when you reraise preflop and then bet this flop? Assuming your opponent is aware of how you play (which your argument assumes) and is reacting by making loose calls against you (another assumption you're making), and assuming you are sometimes reraising preflop and betting this flop without a pair, then there is value in betting this flop, so betting would then have roughly the same reward as checking but without some of the risks.
And, I said that the flop usually misses his hand because it is completely uncoordinated with a K and two small cards. K, 4, 6 rainbow connects with fewer hands that raise and call a reraise preflop than 9, T, J of hearts.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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it seems like just calling is like saying so long to 24 dollars. He always bets the turn, and if im folding to that bet, then that seems bad.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
i actually thought it was push or fold
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I think pushing is really bad. If you want to play for stacks then the most +EV situation is at least giving him the opportunity to bluff off his stack. If you push, you're only getting called by better hands blah blah blah (hes not stacking off with kj..)
As far as checking the flop, I think it's ok if you want to extract value from JJ, 10s or 9. I don't think c-betting is ever really bad in this spot either though.
Anyway, time for results?!!!
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Family Cruise IMO
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
it seems like just calling is like saying so long to 24 dollars. He always bets the turn, and if im folding to that bet, then that seems bad.
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yah that's why i think it's a pretty easy fold
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Family Cruise IMO
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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How about uh, fold preflop?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: back with a vengeance
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Lukie,
The fact that you will occasionally check the flop when you miss does not mean you'll get added action from middle pairs by checking, unless you frequently check and then just randomly start betting with A-Q on a later street, and your responds by making loose calls. And besides, do you always have a hand that beats 9-9 when you reraise preflop and then bet this flop? Assuming your opponent is aware of how you play (which your argument assumes) and is reacting by making loose calls against you (another assumption you're making), and assuming you are sometimes reraising preflop and betting this flop without a pair, then there is value in betting this flop, so betting would then have roughly the same reward as checking but without some of the risks.
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I absolutely never said that there's no value in betting this flop. Even if betting is +EV (it most certainly is), that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a better better play then checking, as we will obviously still have good equity in this pot even when we check. As such, it's perfectly reasonable that betting could be +EV but not the best play. I don't think there is anything wrong with betting this flop, but checking back certainly has it's merits. I'm having a hard time addressing everything else above since I don't agree with some of it, some of it doesn't apply, some of it might be true but debatable, etc., so I'm not going to.
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And, I said that the flop usually misses his hand because it is completely uncoordinated with a K and two small cards. K, 4, 6 rainbow connects with fewer hands that raise and call a reraise preflop than 9, T, J of hearts.
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I hate to be nit-picky, but your exact words were 'this flop almost always misses his hand', which I just don't agree with, because it implies that the other guy is just going to check/fold virtually every time. I would agree that there aren't a terrible amount of hands that hit this flop harder then KQ. by the way, most flops miss most hands, so there's no need to point that out.
Also, I wanted to address this...
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Honestly, if you aren't willing to bet a K high flop with K-Q, why reraise with it before the flop?
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first, I'm not overly thrilled with the 3-bet pre to be honest, but if we're going to do it, a big part of that reason is to take the pot down preflop. Nobody said that we shouldn't be willing to bet here, but that we should check here sometimes. It may get value out of worse hands, it might prevent us from getting stacked by better hands, it makes us tougher to play against (think metagame), along with other reasons.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: back with a vengeance
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
it seems like just calling is like saying so long to 24 dollars. He always bets the turn, and if im folding to that bet, then that seems bad.
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this is actually a very bad argument for pushing, DUCY?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
it seems like just calling is like saying so long to 24 dollars. He always bets the turn, and if im folding to that bet, then that seems bad.
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this is actually a very bad argument for pushing, DUCY? |
no, i don' t CY. Enlighten me please.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
it seems like just calling is like saying so long to 24 dollars. He always bets the turn, and if im folding to that bet, then that seems bad.
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this is actually a very bad argument for pushing, DUCY? |
no, i don' t CY. Enlighten me please. |
The way I see this hand (others may disagree), we beat a bluff and that's about it. Pushing just seems like it allows villain to play too perfectly. How is it better to push then to call the c/r and call the inevitable turn push?
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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And now for the noob.... Is 3-betting here standard?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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no
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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i thought it was vs decent players when i have a good image
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ravageur
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
it seems like just calling is like saying so long to 24 dollars. He always bets the turn, and if im folding to that bet, then that seems bad.
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yah that's why i think it's a pretty easy fold |
its anything but an easy fold. Are u folding AK here as well?
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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3-betting preflop in no limit with K-Q is usually not a great play, in my opinion. It takes a reasonable hand and takes away all postflop playability, as you will have overrepresented the marginal strength you're probably going to have after the flop.
Lukie,
If I raise preflop, and get reraised by a decent tight aggressive player, and the flop comes K high with two uncoordinated small cards, I'm usually going to proceed with caution with a pair, especially if my opponent checks in position, as it would be normal for him to bet here if he had anything other than K-K. I'm not going to be giving added marginal action on account of his "deceptive" check on the flop.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
3-betting preflop in no limit with K-Q is usually not a great play, in my opinion. It takes a reasonable hand and takes away all postflop playability, as you will have overrepresented the marginal strength you're probably going to have after the flop.
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i think its a lot better than calling in this scenario.
There are definitely arguments for folding though.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
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dsax,
try thinking in more general terms (more specifically, how your average player might play in a given situation, not how you EXACTLY would play in this situation). Also consider stuff like meta-game, balancing lines to make you less exploitable, etc. I often think that a lot of the reasoning you post is faulty but it's written in a way that it's very hard to dispute.
In practice, the player with 99 might put you on squarely QQ/JJ and try to move you off of it, or call you down expecting to see a big ace that missed. This is not unreasonable play from the player with 99.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
This is not unreasonable play from the player with 99.
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this is why i felt i couldn't get away. Seemed like a "feeler" minraise from a hand like QQ or JJ.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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I meant that if you're looking at the hand from CO's perspective, checking behind on the flop looks a lot like QQ/JJ...
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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lol ok
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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I was thinking in general terms. I think an "average" player is suspicious when you check a K high flop in position after reraising preflop. This is obviously player-dependent, but I think a random player cannot be expected to make weird bluffs or really loose calls as a result of a flop check here. Of course it is possible, I simply don't think it's probable.
As far as balancing lines is concerned, I thought about that as well. If I'm going to bet here after reraising preflop with A-J, I'm not going to check when I pair my king on the same flop.
Frankly, I think you're overthinking this situation a bit. Just bet and expect to take down the pot.
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