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Fnord
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07-03-2008, 02:47 PM
Post subject: KoJack off OOP vs guy who wants to give me his monies
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Opponent just sat down, been spewing off his money, playing nearly every hand and berated a multi-tabler for being too slow.
Has been seen taking some really really terrible lines.
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($225.50)
UTG+1 ($206.05)
CO ($257.00)
BTN ($138.30)
Hero ($220.70)
BB ($221.75)
Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB  
3 folds, BTN raises to $8, Hero calls $7, 1 fold
Flop:    ($18, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $20, Hero calls $20
Turn:  ($58, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $10, Hero raises to $40, BTN calls $30
River:  ($138, 2 players)
Hero ??? $78 behind
My thoughts:
Pre-flop: EZ call and if you think otherwise you should tear up your pre-flop chart and eat it.
Flop: Meh, he seems to be gas gas gas and I'm not folding here.
Turn: Value-town.
River: Really at a loss. Bet like $40 more for value and hate life if he shoves? Shove? Check?
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,529
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I dunno -- river really depends how much of a spewmonkey he is vs how much of a station he is, no?
If he errs on the side of spewmonkey, c/c, else b/f (and hate life).
I guess I err on the side of b/f cause his turn bet suggests that he might not give the value you're looking for if he's weak, so you might have to 1/3rd pot it yerself, since c/ring a weak bet would make me feel dirty.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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B/f is a fucking crazy river line with a $140 pot and just $80 behind. How much can you even bet without becoming immediately pot committed to any raise he makes, especially knowing that he is spew-prone? Personally I like a $40 value bet and a crying call if he shoves over. I think he calls the original bet with a lot of worse hands, and shoves with enough crap (and because he got a case of the fuckits) that you have to look him up for those pot odds.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,529
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
B/f is a fucking crazy river line with a $140 pot and just $80 behind. How much can you even bet without becoming immediately pot committed to any raise he makes, especially knowing that he is spew-prone? Personally I like a $40 value bet and a crying call if he shoves over. I think he calls the original bet with a lot of worse hands, and shoves with enough crap (and because he got a case of the fuckits) that you have to look him up for those pot odds.
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I misread the river pot size. You're right -- we're commited by any reasonably sized bet.
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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Not really sure what the river changes, I like the tickler bet, then call push. If he has two pair/AJ/set then puke later, after he spews a stack back to you.
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Operation Grind For Education:
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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strange that if your not planning on shoving this river then why c/r turn?
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I like a river shove followed closely by c/c. His range includes a ton of worse hands (QJ/JT/Kx/AQ/AT) and I doubt he can fold them. If you think he gets there with even worse (A-high?) or is bad enough to turn decent hands into a bluff then c/c might be better.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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raise the flop and get it in on any turn?
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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weird hand. i think i like c/c the river better than shoving yourslef
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
weird hand. i think i like c/c the river better than shoving yourslef
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I think I like shoving the most. He checks behind way too many hands that will feel committed to calling the shove. He can't think he has much FE with little over a 1/2 pot bet even if he is a spewtard.
Actually, if we're not shoving, I prefer c/f as my next option. Unless of course, I'm misunderstanding just how spewy this guy is.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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i think its close between shoving and c/cing. kind of depends on what you think he will do more bluff or call down really light.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Shoving
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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why is it OK to call PF with KJ0? even though our opponent is terrible we really can't expect that much from this hand OOP.
as played, i vote for shove.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
why is it OK to call PF with KJ0?
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Because it's ahead of his range and he'll hang himself on a lot of flops that hit our hand.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
even though our opponent is terrible we really can't expect that much from this hand OOP.
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huh? are you voting for shoving as a bluff here then?
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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no bet/folding plz. Id probably C/r raise flop and get it in ...he'l call you with worse. But as played..shove the river.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I would tend to just shove the river, its less than 2/3 pot. If "spewing off his money" means any kind of CS tendencies this is good isnt it?
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Just playing to improve.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
why is it OK to call PF with KJ0?
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Because it's ahead of his range and he'll hang himself on a lot of flops that hit our hand. |
what range do u you him on? i just stoved it, and any PFR of 20% or more is pretty much 50/50 in equity, so i don't think it's that big of a difference. what matters is how we extract value post-flop from this guy who is expected to spew, and i don't think we can do that too often out of position. we get into situations like this hand where we try to take them to value town but get into a pickle when they call us down to the river.
ah well, maybe i'm just a nit cuz i avoid any confrontations with maniacs because i don't like situations like what hero has...so i tend to be extremely passive in the blinds.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
even though our opponent is terrible we really can't expect that much from this hand OOP.
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huh? are you voting for shoving as a bluff here then? |
i was still referring to preflop.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Right or wrong, I'm much more Fnord-ish vs. maniacs. I will call even OOP with two big cards, and try to get to showdown with top or second pair every time. Very often they'll throw a lot of chips your way with air (if you don't blow them off the pot), any pocket pair (maniacs have a weird fixation on these hands), and a lot of worse pairs to the board or pair/worse kicker. Your equity might be even pre-flop, but your better sense of hand value greatly increases the hand's profitability post-flop.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
what range do u you him on?
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I open ~35% when folded to me on the button, so I assume this guy opens that much or more. But surprisingly, when I stove KJo vs. top 35%, it's about 50/50. Surprising, but good to know!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
what matters is how we extract value post-flop from this guy who is expected to spew, and i don't think we can do that too often out of position. we get into situations like this hand where we try to take them to value town but get into a pickle when they call us down to the river.
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I still disagree with this. Villains that bet too much are the perfect ones to call with high cards, in or out of position. They'll cbet air, they'll valuebet worse kings and jacks... sure you'll get taken to valuetown once in a blue moon by AK or KQ, but you'll rarely get stacked and those are such a small part of his betting range.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
even though our opponent is terrible we really can't expect that much from this hand OOP.
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huh? are you voting for shoving as a bluff here then? |
i was still referring to preflop. |
What I meant was that this hand is an example of getting a lot from this hand oop! We have a medium strength one pair hand, yet you still recommend shoving for value against this guy. It's a perfect example of why calling from the blinds is a good idea!
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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hahah, i get it :P
i say shove, but it should be more like cry & shove.
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